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Adjustment advice on a new suit


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#1 LordKyleOfEarth

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:34 AM

Hello all,

I originally came to the Cutterandtailor site in search of information on how to better fit garments. I had no idea how much I didn't know. The unintended consequence was that I learned how poorly my off-the-rack suits fit me. In an attempt to improve things, I recently bought a made-to-measure suit from a online vendor and the results were about what I expected, for the money that I paid. Fortunately the proprietor has offered to remake the jacket to correct the sleeve and jacket length issues. It also affords the chance to make some refinements to the pattern. Unfortunately, I am not sure how to address a tightness problem in the back and upper arms. The tightness only occurs when moving my arms forward.
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I suspect that the pattern needs to be corrected for broad shoulders and/or have additional ease added to the upper back; is that correct? Also, based upon this picture, I think that the sleeve pitch needs to be adjusted forward:
Posted Image

I also think that the armscye is incorrect (I requested a smaller armscye, so the tailor had to deviate) but I'm not positive. Can anyone confirm or deny that? Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
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I am planning to dissect this one (since it isn't wearable) so I can examine the inner workings of an inexpensive fully canvassed Asian MTM suit. I will gladly post the pictures If anyone is interested.

Thank you,
Kyle

#2 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:49 AM

Pic 1 and 2 is irrelevant as this is an overdone unnatural position.

Now you know what people get in Asia made by own measurements for 200$... no wonder.
But the Asia tailors can do better if they see you in person and take your measurements directly.

1.5cm hanging site on the right.

This suit is unfixable for the money.
www.berlinbespokesuits.com

#3 ladhrann

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:49 AM

Kyle,

Welcome to the forum! And also submitting yourself to judgement on the internet, which takes a fair amount of bravery. If you wanted a professional tailors opinion on the jacket perhaps you could contact Jeffrey Diduch a professional tailor who often dissects jackets of various makes both bespoke and RTW etc. on his blog http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com/

If not perhaps a tailor here would be interested in your photos or collaborating with you.

For the corrections I'm not a professional I can only say what you already know, that there is not enough ease across the shoulder blades to allow movement and there is far too much around the waist and bottom. The sleeve pitch needs to be altered to allow it to hang straight when the arm is at its natural position.

Jeffrey Diduch again has an excellent write-up on the internet suit experience and how to work with the tailor (and not micromanage) on the re-make.

Where are you based at all? Have you investigated bespoke tailors in your own locality?

Edited by ladhrann, 02 November 2012 - 10:30 AM.


#4 LordKyleOfEarth

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:37 AM

Pic 1 and 2 is irrelevant as this is an overdone unnatural position.

Now you know what people get in Asia made by own measurements for 200$... no wonder.
But the Asia tailors can do better if they see you in person and take your measurements directly.

1.5cm hanging site on the right.

This suit is unfixable for the money.


Unfortunately, a flight to Asia is beyond my means at this time; hence my decision to try an online MTM service in the first place. If I had the option I would gladly pay a trained tailor to bespoke a suit locally (assuming I could find such a tailor). This suit will not be fixed, a new suit is going to be made, and I am hoping to provide useful feedback to the tailor in hopes of getting as good a fit as possible. I also understand that the resulting suit will not fit right, and that it will need additional tailoring.


Kyle,

Welcome to the forum! And also submitting yourself to judgement on the internet, which takes a fair amount of bravery. If you wanted a professional tailors opinion on the jacket perhaps you could contact Jeffrey Diduch a professional tailor who often dissects jackets of various makes both bespoke and RTW etc. on his blog http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com/

If not perhaps a tailor here would be interested in your photos or collaborating with you.

For the corrections I'm not a professional I can only say what you already know, that there is not enough ease across the shoulder blades to allow movement and there is far too much around the waist and bottom. The sleeve pitch needs to be altered to allow it to hang straight when the arm is at its natural position.

Jeffrey Diduch again has an excellent write-up on the internet suit experience and how to work with the tailor (and not micromanage) on the re-make.

Where are you based at all? Have you investigated bespoke tailors in your own locality?

Thank you for the warm welcome. I will check out Jeffrey's site for his recommendations. I am from South Texas, where millionaires wear cheap off the rack suits and most 'tailors' are minimum wage employees in the backs of dry cleaners. I have visited three well reviewed tailors recently and I was not impressed by any of them. I am hoping that between this site, my own knowledge, and their feedback that I may be able to get a workable suit. I can identify some problems, I just do not know what to ask for to correct it.

I only have occasion to wear a suit maybe a dozen times a year, and I just became a father (of twins no less) so my suiting budget is limited. I understand that this limits my options, but I still believe that I can get results better than a simple fused OTR suit. I figured that this site would be able to offer better feedback than StyleForums (and the like), where my haircut, tie choice, and photo lighting would also be on trial.

#5 Martin Stall

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:21 PM

It seems you have scoliosis (curving of the spine). It often goes together with a low shoulder (the right one, in your case). In short: You need direct, live measurements if you want a suit that fits.

As for small scye: that's one of the hardest parts in a suit to get right, and the smaller the more difficult. The reason that the MTM and RTW industries developed the big scyes is that it obviates fittings.

I'd be very hesitant to try this tailor again. If the results on the first try are like this, the second run probably won't satisfy either.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but suits are hard and long distance suits much harder.

Where do you live? In any decent size town you'll be able to find immigrant tailors, and some of them can be quite good. And if you pay them more than they ask for they could do you a really good job.
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#6 LordKyleOfEarth

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:20 PM

It seems you have scoliosis (curving of the spine). It often goes together with a low shoulder (the right one, in your case). In short: You need direct, live measurements if you want a suit that fits.

As for small scye: that's one of the hardest parts in a suit to get right, and the smaller the more difficult. The reason that the MTM and RTW industries developed the big scyes is that it obviates fittings.

I'd be very hesitant to try this tailor again. If the results on the first try are like this, the second run probably won't satisfy either.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but suits are hard and long distance suits much harder.

Where do you live? In any decent size town you'll be able to find immigrant tailors, and some of them can be quite good. And if you pay them more than they ask for they could do you a really good job.


I'm in San Antonio, TX. It's a large city, but my search for a decent tailor has been pretty disappointing. I have found some really good dressmakers, but they admit to having very little experience with suiting (beyond the basic sleeve/waist/etc adjustment). I may have scoliosis, but if so it's never been diagnosed. I may have been standing at an angle during these pictures, because I broke a toe on Sunday.

I have a prominent buttocks, large quadriceps, and a narrow waist. When shopping OTR I have to make too many sacrifices. A $400 MTM suit offered me the opportunity to obtain a suit that compensates for these problems. I am not expecting this to be on par with a $1,000 suit, especially given the price that I paid. I just want something better than what I could get at a store. Since the jacket is being remade (for free), I would like to take the opportunity to tweak the fit and correct what I can. I will have it further adjusted once it arrives.

At the end of the day I am fully aware that I am buying a suit from a tailor on a different continent, with measurements from local tailors (of unknown skill), and that I am paying $400 for it all. My expectations reflect that, and things have been pretty much what I expected up to this point.

Edited by LordKyleOfEarth, 02 November 2012 - 01:24 PM.


#7 ladhrann

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:01 PM

Unfortunately, a flight to Asia is beyond my means at this time; hence my decision to try an online MTM service in the first place. If I had the option I would gladly pay a trained tailor to bespoke a suit locally (assuming I could find such a tailor). This suit will not be fixed, a new suit is going to be made, and I am hoping to provide useful feedback to the tailor in hopes of getting as good a fit as possible. I also understand that the resulting suit will not fit right, and that it will need additional tailoring. .


I would not suggest a flight to Asia myself, rather I would concentrate resources on finding someone as local as possible, where you can go in multiple times to check fit or detail. As Diduch says in his writings on the subject the best garments he has seen are the result of a collaboration between the client and the craftsman over time. According to those in the know the best suit or best fitting being after two or three suits have been made [pros feel free to contradict me].

Thank you for the warm welcome. I will check out Jeffrey's site for his recommendations. I am from South Texas, where millionaires wear cheap off the rack suits and most 'tailors' are minimum wage employees in the backs of dry cleaners. I have visited three well reviewed tailors recently and I was not impressed by any of them. I am hoping that between this site, my own knowledge, and their feedback that I may be able to get a workable suit. I can identify some problems, I just do not know what to ask for to correct it.


Not at all. I find it strange myself that the wealthiest dress the worst both sides of the Atlantic and even moreso that those who have something handmade for them so often choose black. However we may veer into politics and the subjective if we wander too far down that path. Once again it is a brave decision to submit oneself to online castigation, but I do feel that you will find some of the most honest criticism online here.

If you read Diduchs' article on internet tailoring and how to resolve issues with a remake, he suggests standing in a natural stance and sending several good photos (i.e. no phone cameras) to the tailor in question. As non-professionals our own thoughts on what may cause pulling or fit issues may be entirely wrong, as in you may think the problem is due to too much shoulder padding for instance but the real trouble may be in a seam or elsewhere.

I only have occasion to wear a suit maybe a dozen times a year, and I just became a father (of twins no less) so my suiting budget is limited. I understand that this limits my options, but I still believe that I can get results better than a simple fused OTR suit. I figured that this site would be able to offer better feedback than StyleForums (and the like), where my haircut, tie choice, and photo lighting would also be on trial.


Congratulations on your double joy! I understand that resources are finite, and it is particularly because of this that I would warn people away from internet tailoring. As in you may be far better off husbanding those scarce resources towards the real deal or perhaps in testing the skills of a local craftsman/woman. For instance if you source your own cloth especially tweeds or linens but also worsteds from the mills direct you can save something, you can go into a dressmaker/tailor and ask them about making trousers for you. Show them pictures of what you want and see what they can produce, then for the next level you could get a jacket on its own made.

Have you already heard of this tailor in San Antonio? In the pictures he has cloth books and so on so he must make clothing from scratch:
http://local.mysanan...tom-Tailor-Shop

Also there appear to be a few tailors [ie as far as these things go in the US] near you in Austin that may be worth a try:

http://www.gassanetailors.com/

http://www.chasnoff.com/about.html

#8 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:03 PM

You could look at my site in Houston to get some quality ideas maybe...

Edited by Der Zuschneider, 02 November 2012 - 02:04 PM.

www.berlinbespokesuits.com

#9 Measure Man

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:57 PM

Hi, It will help your Tailor a lot if you send him as many pictures as you can, for a made to measure I would not make a big deal about the sleeve pitch being high, a lot of ready made companies do this to play safe and it gives a touch more ease into the jacket. So if their scye shape is poor pitching the sleeve back might make it more uncomfortable when reaching forward!

From the front of your jacket at the sides of the neck I can see signs of shoulder creases, this is tightness in the shoulders and will get worse after wear, increasing the neck circle, picking up the neck point and adding shoulder fullness will help this fault which is caused by a tightness from the back of your neck to the front of your shoulder bone.

The lack of comfort when reaching forward is coming from the armhole size and shape because the shoulder width does not look too bad. If the shoulders are made much wider it could make the jacket a look bit bulky and not as flattering. It is quite strange because the back scye sits better on your down shoulder but it is worse at the neck beside the collar, this leads me to think you might be down right and slightly more forward on that shoulder.

The back has too much length on the centre back seam and it needs re shaped to match the shape of your back, it is loose and long at the back waist and the vent is opening up needing a bit more spring for your seat. I also think it would help if the shoulder slope is made slightly more square because in movement it is bunching up under your collar.

Also a touch off the sleeve length will help.

Edited by Measure Man, 02 November 2012 - 11:26 PM.


#10 LordKyleOfEarth

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:15 PM

Have you already heard of this tailor in San Antonio? In the pictures he has cloth books and so on so he must make clothing from scratch:
http://local.mysanan...tom-Tailor-Shop


I had not found him before. I guess that Google has been filtering my results for 'accuracy', because multiple searches with the keywords "San Antonio" "tailor" "Suiting" "Menswear" failed to return Chicago Tailor. Now that I've clicked that link, he is the first result that returns... odd.

I met with the owner today and he was very helpful. He suggested that the base problem is that my over-arm measurement (48") is disproportionate to my chest (39"). Does that sound right? I'll pass this information on to the MTM service and see if it makes any difference. Suits from Chicago Tailor start at about $1,000, so I fear a local made suit is still out of my reach. I am much more confident, however, in their ability to do any needed alterations.


Hi, It will help your Tailor a lot if you send him as many pictures as you can, for a made to measure I would not make a big deal about the sleeve pitch being high, a lot of ready made companies do this to play safe and it gives a touch more ease into the jacket. So if their scye shape is poor pitching the sleeve back might make it more uncomfortable when reaching forward!

From the front of your jacket at the sides of the neck I can see signs of shoulder creases, this is tightness in the shoulders and will get worse after wear, increasing the neck circle, picking up the neck point and adding shoulder fullness will help this fault which is caused by a tightness from the back of your neck to the front of your shoulder bone.

The lack of comfort when reaching forward is coming from the armhole size and shape because the shoulder width does not look too bad. If the shoulders are made much wider it could make the jacket a look bit bulky and not as flattering. It is quite strange because the back scye sits better on your down shoulder but it is worse at the neck beside the collar, this leads me to think you might be down right and slightly more forward on that shoulder.

The back has too much length on the centre back seam and it needs re shaped to match the shape of your back, it is loose and long at the back waist and the vent is opening up needing a bit more spring for your seat. I also think it would help if the shoulder slope is made slightly more square because in movement it is bunching up under your collar.

Also a touch off the sleeve length will help.


Thank you for this. I will pass this on to the tailor as well. I suspected that the arm hole might be misshapen based upon the bunching in the rear armpits. Regarding the rear vent, I am having the remake built with a double vent, because the vent gap due to large seat issue has been a constant problem for me. I realize that simply changing the vent style is not going to correct it, but I think it will make any gaping less noticeable, assuming the tailor is unable to correctly compensate for it.


It continues to blow my mind how incredibly complex a suit jacket is. Last year, when I began to browse this site, I honestly thought that I could make one myself (after an attempt or two). I know now, and continue to learn, how far out of my skill set the task actually is. Thank you all for your help.

#11 ladhrann

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:43 AM

I had not found him before. I guess that Google has been filtering my results for 'accuracy', because multiple searches with the keywords "San Antonio" "tailor" "Suiting" "Menswear" failed to return Chicago Tailor. Now that I've clicked that link, he is the first result that returns... odd.

I met with the owner today and he was very helpful. He suggested that the base problem is that my over-arm measurement (48") is disproportionate to my chest (39"). Does that sound right? I'll pass this information on to the MTM service and see if it makes any difference. Suits from Chicago Tailor start at about $1,000, so I fear a local made suit is still out of my reach. I am much more confident, however, in their ability to do any needed alterations.



I searched for ''custom tailor'', in any event it means that there is a tailor near you. If a suit from this gent starts at $1,000 then I suggest you save up and give him a try. Get him to make you a jacket or 'sportscoat' as you say in the U.S. At that price its most likely all machine-made or fused but ask him about it and if he can do handwork where it is most visible like on the buttonholes. In my view you are better off getting one decent suit than two or three long-distance m2m garments.


It continues to blow my mind how incredibly complex a suit jacket is. Last year, when I began to browse this site, I honestly thought that I could make one myself (after an attempt or two). I know now, and continue to learn, how far out of my skill set the task actually is. Thank you all for your help.


I have had a similar learning experience myself. Essentially we could all probably sew enough to cover ourselves from the elements but there is a huge difference between something being handmade and looking handmade. It takes a huge amount of spatial awareness and intelligence combined with experience to realise a 3D shape (the body) in 2D (the pattern) and then change it into 3D again with a professional polished appearance.

This is why I urge you to try a local tailor first [or next even] who can see your body, watch how you hold yourself and move and will have a far far better chance at building you a good or even great garment than the long-distance option.

#12 Schneidergott

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:45 AM

The trouble with companies that offer cheap clothes is that they cannot (or want to) spend a lot of money on expert personnel. So the staff is likely hired off the street and poorly trained, which means that they can operate the machines, but don't know about quality issues and how to do things properly.

Problem is: All MTM alterations are applied to their basic pattern, so if that one is not well elaborated it will show in the results. The best RTW and MTM companies try hard to improve their basic blocks and the make of their products, which costs money.
Others spend their money on advertising campaigns and try to attract customers with fancy videos that show how "tailors" hand craft their suits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NGewUMrKMg

Something very similar from another company:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXbpnvaHmdI

My personal advice would be to get a refund (if possible) and spend a bit more at a local (or nearest) outfitter or tailor, now that you know what to look for in the fit of a coat.

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#13 Martin Stall

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:11 AM

I agree with the above. You could have been lucky with this experiment, but with the results you got it's not likely that the second coat will be much better. Some, but not much. Sowwy.

Re the videos: That's false advertising if I ever saw it. That first one tops the bill: They represent the tailor as if working on an antique pedal machine? Ridiculous.
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#14 Schneidergott

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:27 AM

Re the videos: That's false advertising if I ever saw it. That first one tops the bill: They represent the tailor as if working on an antique pedal machine? Ridiculous.


Apart from that it's plain silly to believe that all their suits are (or can be) made that way. They claim (in an interview) to have 40.000 customers worldwide, so let's say each one orders at least 1 suit per year, even with the longer working hours in China that would mean 130 (hand crafted :spiteful: ) suits per day.


The workforce necessary to accomplish that would be enormous.

Still, I cannot believe how many people fall for this kind of advertising and want to give them a second or maybe even a third chance after a similarly bad experience like this one. :shock:

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#15 ladhrann

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:45 AM

Those videos are all a bit odd, and I'm confused as to why a blonde girl is packing up the suits in Shanghai. Is there any reason why none of the tailors are using pressing cloths as they do their pressing?


By the way LordKyleOfEarth another thing that might be more manageable is getting bespoke shirts. I went for a few suits first but now I realise that I need good shirts to complement those suits as none look really right on me. If you're not happy with rtw shirts getting shirts made is part of building a wardrobe that takes a lot less outlay. Its also something that tailors who do not have the time or inclination for suits, I'm thinking particularly alterations tailors may be able to do. There are resources here for sourcing decent cloth and interlinings as well if you cannot source them locally.

#16 Martin Stall

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:05 AM

Yes, there is a reason. Those videos are theatre, nothing more. It has nothing to do with how the suits are actually made.
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#17 Terri

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:15 AM

He suggested that the base problem is that my over-arm measurement (48") is disproportionate to my chest (39"). Does that sound right?


Would anyone like to elaborate on this? It is not a measure that I use, although I have heard of it being taken in some retail shops.

#18 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:22 AM

I met with the owner today and he was very helpful. He suggested that the base problem is that my over-arm measurement (48") is disproportionate to my chest (39"). Does that sound right? I'll pass this information on to the MTM service and see if it makes any difference. Suits from Chicago Tailor start at about $1,000, so I fear a local made suit is still out of my reach. I am much more confident, however, in their ability to do any needed alterations.


This is an old control measurement procedure from 1948 for the armhole ease without pads, nobody is doing that anymore.
So if your chest is 39 inch then your over arm-shoulder measurement is 21.86 inch and not 48 inch!

Edited by Der Zuschneider, 05 November 2012 - 08:24 AM.

www.berlinbespokesuits.com




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