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#55 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 08:38 PM

Most 'modern' tailored clothes do not require the amount of shape and close fitted qualities created by these canvasses.


I find this unfortunate and shows the degradation of the trade to emulate "fashion house" factory made garments.

I personally like more structured and fitted look, and this has nothing to do with my background in the trade. Simply put a coat with a bit of crook in the shoulders and a little iron splashed on it will always produce a more stylish and graceful coat.
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#56 Sator

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 04:26 PM

To be honest a lot of these old canvas cutting and making systems don't work.

Most of the modern type canvasses are just not firm enough to stand the amount of working up to retain and hold the shape created by the large vee's and wedges.

The other aspect is that todays tailored clothes, style wise, and fitting wise, have vastly changed.

Most 'modern' tailored clothes do not require the amount of shape and close fitted qualities created by these canvasses.


I think all of this has already been discussed in this thread. Soft canvas + too many cuts = weak and floppy mess. Even one of the 1960-70s Rundschau articles dismisses the more elaborate cuts as being old fashioned and "too upholstered". They then eliminate all of the vees/wedges at the shoulder - all of them!

Yes, I think that we are all aware that the fashion today is for lightness and softness. If you try to force Jason's preference for a Victorian upholstered look on all your clients you are going to face bankruptcy.

#57 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 01:20 AM

Oh Lord forgive him for he knows not what he speaks :Praying:

Sorry, but soft tailoring and paper fabrics are for little girls on their way to play tiddlywinks at a tea party. Modern suits will never fit like, wear like, nor be graceful in art and form as a more structured suit, crooked shoulder and fair iron work, simply will not happen. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about 15 layers of horse over a heavy plastron over a heavy lacquered linen art canvas that would become popular that is V'd five ways from tuesday.
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#58 Schneidergott

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 09:13 PM

It is highly debatable whether or not a cut that makes you look like a barrel is the pinnacle of grace and chic... :spiteful:

To each his/ her own, I say!

About canvas construction, this is the latest Rundschau version:

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#59 Brave Tailor

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 07:22 PM

Simple, but pocket hangs on fabric?
And pulls it down at lateral side.
And lapel is not forced, been cut some wider or tighter.
Yes, for 3 monthes of 1 season ruther enough.
Next year - next suit?

#60 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 12:08 PM

I was looking in Otto Meier "Der individuelle Zuschnitt" 1953 Schweiz

They have a canvas construction which support the roll in front of the arm hole.
But this is oldfashion and contradict the front neck dart. So I leave the book alone.

Edited by Der Zuschneider, 09 January 2011 - 07:05 PM.

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#61 Brave Tailor

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 01:07 AM

There's not a story of more woe,
Than....
oh! books vs. experience

Smooth on paper
Map was yet
But ravine
Was deep and wet!:shock:

#62 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 02:09 AM

Yes, books are no replacement for experience, BUT they are a great supplement to ones studies and used properly with experimentation it allows the tailor to try new techniques he wouldn't have otherwise tried. Sometimes the book is better than what was taught, sometimes not. Remember, back in the day a tailor would gain this experience of different methods by travelling to the provenances or other urban tailors when they became journeymen and struck out on their own. For instance, look at Mr. Vincent's learning experience. He started out as a semi rural apprentice in Maidenhead and by the time he became the Editor of the Tailor and Cutter, the majority of his teaching came not from what he initially learned in Maidenhead, but what he had learned at various shops throughout England. The method of cutting he learned from Mr. Bolander would be refined over the next 8 years and would become the CPG and Vincent Systems that would continue evolving until the 1970's.
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#63 Sator

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 05:45 PM

Italian canvasses (from Il Tagliatore di Abiti in Azione):

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Posted Image

#64 Schneidergott

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 04:22 AM

Something from the "Allgemeine Schneiderzeitung" (machine made):

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Posted Image

and from Ligas:

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Posted Image

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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#65 Sator

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 10:19 PM

This comes from The Tailor & Cutter January 12th 1951.

Cunningham is another exponent of cutting both the chest and body canvas on the bias:

Posted Image

He argues that it is an advantage to have bias around the chest. That fact that the bridle falls on the straight is something he considers a further plus.

#66 Martin Stall

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 01:09 AM

The thing with these kind of techniques is that they're generally obsolete, partly because cutting systems evolved, partly because we can't get that same kind of canvass material any longer, and partly because none of us young squirts know any longer how to properly shape canvass and shell cloth, and finally because modern shell cloths don't behave the same way as the stuff that tailors used back in those days. In short, this is only interesting for period tailors. In fact, it stands to greatly confuse and set back modern learners.
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#67 Sator

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 11:45 AM

In short, this is only interesting for period tailors.


Period tailoring? Gasp - the horrors! :shock:

A lot of European men's tailors (German, Italian - and obviously Dutch) don't cut canvas on the bias. However, Claire Shaeffer has said previously that the Parisian haute couture ladies' houses such as Chanel do still routinely cut their canvas on the bias. I understand that this is to create softer lines. It seems that Anglo-American men's tailors also adopted this ladies' tailoring technique last century on so-called "soft coats".

The theoretical reasons for this are explained by Whife and Cunningham. So I am curious to experiment with trying this out on a soft summer coat. I have already started to test a canvas from Tessollino Zorloni Bruno out for this.

However, I agree that beginners should start with cutting conventionally on the straight, unless they have a real life teacher who instructs them to do otherwise. This is especially true of modern canvasses which are already sufficiently soft without having to cut them on the bias.

#68 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 03:21 PM

There is a simple reason why canvas is cut on bias Otto Meier, Switzerland 1950 explains:

Single breast coats canvas only cut on the bias for the support of donglon wedge to work nicer on the Abstich in the Front.
DB are cut on the straight cause this is not supported too much there.

Isn't that a simple answer when you read the right book? I sell the book for 120Euro, looks brand new 1950.
Otto Meier was an important master cutter in Switzerland.

Today it is nonsense to cut the front canvas on bias, you can do it but you won’t see the difference.
That is the only reason why front canvas is cut on bias, any other speculation is nonsense.

Beginner or not beginner, bias or straight... if you know how to construct the canvas it doesn't matter if you do it on bias or straight.
You can even enhance this nonsense, when Otto Meier cuts the plastron rectangular to the bias front canvas...

What a nonsense cutting book, at least I could read what craziness is possible in tailor craft in Switzerland.

Cut your front canvas straight and the plastron along the bridle and good is and don't waste your time with too much speculation thinking of nonsense.
Most of the tailors before 1950 were awful they only had 8th grade. Many philosophicals here love the ancient tailor time where tailors produced potato sacks from carpet fabric on crocked neck point drafts. The minor percentage of good tailors had more than eight grade the others mostly were special education.
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#69 Lewis Davies

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 06:40 PM

i think you should pay more attention to what the article is saying and try it out
you might be suprised

#70 Schneidergott

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 01:17 AM

My concern about cutting the main canvas on the bias would be that it is straight (and therefore springy and more resistant) where a tailor has to shorten the bridle.
A bit counter-productive, IMHO.

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#71 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 02:09 AM

My concern about cutting the main canvas on the bias would be that it is straight (and therefore springy and more resistant) where a tailor has to shorten the bridle.
A bit counter-productive, IMHO.


Absolutely right, we need bias on the bridle so we can iron in the 1cm we take out there in the plastron. We secure the iron work with a stretched bias sleeve lining tape sewn on the front canvas. I think front canvas on bias because of the donglon wedge is unnecessary and wrong. The spring of the canvas works on bias canvas diagonal or rectangular to the bridle as well which is also wrong. If you use cheap canvas without any spring then it doesn't matter to much. Before 1930 there was such canvas the tailors produced spring with tight pick stitch like a busy ant...
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#72 greger

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 02:58 AM

Wouldn't what the coat is used for matter? If you are a banker wouldn't you want a firmer coat so it always looks good? But if the same banker wanted to play golf then he would want some of the opposite characteristics, something easy to swing golf clubs with. What is the application of the coat?

You can take in the bridle with a dart.




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