53 replies to this topic

[Torry Kratch]

Dressura? It's funny how Russian technical terms are so similar to German ones.

The author and publisher of the Russian book (early 19 th century), Karl Berrys. Its name suggests that it is not of Russian origin. But lived in Russia. The book is written right old Russian.

By the way, it draws students' attention on the book Mr. Katoon, saying that this book is equipped with a set of photos from the dress, is in processing. It was widespread, as it will inevitably have recommended in each workshop. Search this book gave a null result. Maybe you (foreign colleagues) know anything about Mr. Katoon and his book?

In the sartorius Russian terminology, there are loan words. This is what I would like to talk in more detail in another topic.

Edited by Torry Kratch, 18 December 2010 - 05:30 AM.

[Sator]

I don't think "Dressur" is a German word. It has a number of meanings:

breaking in
dressage
memory training [psych.]
training

It comes from the French word "le dressage", verb "dresser" (to drill or train), le dresseur (trainer). The word der Dresseur is also used in German to mean a trainer.

It's a very good word that means breaking in and "training" cloth like a new horse. Dressage in English is horse training. However, we don't talk about ironwork as being "dressage".

[Der Zuschneider]

In the time of "Katarina die Grosse" thousands of Germans immigrated into Russia they are called Wolgadeutsche, probably they brought the German word 'Dressur' to Russia.
‘Dressur’ is a German word – means ‘etwas beibringen was man eigentlich nicht möchte’.

[Sator]

Duden says that the word "dressieren" comes from the French word "dresser". They say that the word Dressur comes from the word meaning the "dresser/dressieren" of a horse ie dressage in English.

[Torry Kratch]

In Russian the word "Dressura" has exactly the same meaning, that is --- circus training and service animals. But more often they say no --- "Dressura", say --- "Dresseerovka".

In regard to the processing ironing clothes --- only "Dressura".

In the case of animals --- "Dressura" and (often) "Dresseerovka"

Edited by Torry Kratch, 18 December 2010 - 10:03 PM.

[Brave Tailor]

Duden says that the word "dressieren" comes from the French word "dresser". They say that the word Dressur comes from the word meaning the "dresser/dressieren" of a horse ie dressage in English.

May be - "the order" in any case. Common meaning?
"dresser" also mean - "draw" or "to break"
Ex pluribus - unum!

[Sator]

This thread has been updated significantly. I also merged the Rundschau and Schneidermeister trouser ironwork threads so that they can both be pinned together at the top of this forum. I think it is good to read both together.

[Philip_AMS]

So having just made another pair of trousers which were drafted using the rundschau system I was wondering about the iron work. The rundschau books show iron work being down before the trouser is sewn with the under side at the inseam is being stretched at the top part and also on the outseam to being stretched then my knee balance marks no longer matched. They were narrow trouser so needed iron work. Should the iron work be done before sewing or after sewing? I was looking at Jeffey_D blog post on trousers and he had iron worked the trouser before sewing but then what to do with the extra length from stretching out the under side?

[Der Zuschneider]

Mark on Mark together basted and when seams became longer then redraft after the pattern to make it even.
Later, when you make another pattern you can shorten those seams beforehand so that they then have the same length after ironwork.

[Philip_AMS]

So if I understand correctly after mark stitching up, I iron work the top and under sides and then due to the seams on the underside getting significantly longer due to where I shape for the hollow of the back thigh. Then I place my pattern back onto the iron worked top and under sides and remark stitch?
Probably a very difficult question to answer due to so many cloths that react differently but how much should my underside be stretched off to make a nice hollow on the back thigh? Would it be as much as 1" or more?
My last pair I just made I was not so impressed with my iron work of the final shape of the trousers. I think I had a tendency to over iron work them (I'm sure a common thing for someone starting out learning to ironwork garments)

[jcsprowls]

Probably a very difficult question to answer due to so many cloths that react differently

Precisely. But, think that through a minute...

Most practical tailors only work with a handful of cloths. Through practice and intuition, they chose to excel in only a few categories - specializing (e.g. outerwear, suits, shirts, etc), as it were.

As DZ says, pattern engineering is a discipline. If you transfer back to the pattern the information (i.e. constraints) you discovered while making the first sample (or, specimen), you are freed to refine technique.

Said another way: if your goods fall within reasonable parameters and your pattern is specific to those goods/parameters, then you only have technique to worry about.

When first starting to learn, it's sometimes difficult to separate these things. This insight comes with practice and observation.

[Philip_AMS]

Well what's nice about discovering iron work is that I work in RTW and of course most cutters I know do not know what iron work is. We could recognize a Hoffman press but wouldn't have a clue about iron working a trouser because it just isn't performed on most RTW trousers. When cutting trousers for RTW I waa always told that my inseam on the underside should be 3/8" shorter and to notch 1" below the crotch on the inseam and another notch 9" below so that the stretching off is done only in this area but this is only through sewing process that its stretched and that it should not exceed 3/8" I never thought that it could also be done with iron work although in RTW I would never shorten an outseam of a trouser to allow for stretching off just an inseam because of its slight bias angle allows it when machining it. I think on my next trouser I will purposely shorten the outseam and inseam on the under side above the knee on my next trouser to allow for this stretching off and shorten the top side below the knee. I'm already excited about my next pair to make! Thanks everyone for the input. Iron work is a complete mistery to me but it's so wonderful to discover more about the trade I love.

[jcsprowls]

There's still ironwork in RTW - just not the extent we see in custom clothing.

As you probably already know, we use shaped buck presses - typically for coat fronts. When drafting a coat pattern for production, these patternmakers should be accounting for the displacement that occurs from this process. If not, the sewing operators would gripe the sleeves never set in. They probably do this but conceal the information like a magic "trick".

In the specific instance of pants, you're right. Some degree of fulling and stretching can be done by deliberate placement of notches. I do it a little differently but, the effect is the same. Once the garment is underpressed, the topside is shrunken onto the underside, opening the front fork (i.e. pulling downward) and pushing ease into the front crutch (viz. the "ballroom").

[Der Zuschneider]

Well what's nice about discovering iron work is that I work in RTW and of course most cutters I know do not know what iron work is. We could recognize a Hoffman press but wouldn't have a clue about iron working a trouser because it just isn't performed on most RTW trousers. When cutting trousers for RTW I waa always told that my inseam on the underside should be 3/8" shorter and to notch 1" below the crotch on the inseam and another notch 9" below so that the stretching off is done only in this area but this is only through sewing process that its stretched and that it should not exceed 3/8" I never thought that it could also be done with iron work although in RTW I would never shorten an outseam of a trouser to allow for stretching off just an inseam because of its slight bias angle allows it when machining it. I think on my next trouser I will purposely shorten the outseam and inseam on the under side above the knee on my next trouser to allow for this stretching off and shorten the top side below the knee. I'm already excited about my next pair to make! Thanks everyone for the input. Iron work is a complete mistery to me but it's so wonderful to discover more about the trade I love.

Exactly correct, you knew the answer, you just don't know why it works.

Those RTW cutter have somewhere hidden an engineer who knew that and keep it for himself. Advanced cutting is an build in iron work draft which then is an end result cutting. But it is better to pre stretch those areas with the iron and have the rest of it stretched by the machine or stretched basting work. In today's light fabric there is less stretching possible so the machine stretching is just right. The problem is to understand where exactly the climax of the stretching is. When you look at the correct calculated pattern and compare it to the body form and you can make the 3 dimensional connection between the two links then you become a perfect tailor. Observation and practice will teach you over the years, with a good working mind an old experienced tailor could show and explain you that simplicity on the table in just a couple of minutes. So did mine master tailor unlock the trouser secrets unto me and I made big eyes 25 years ago cause I also didn't understand it when I started the journey, LOL.

[Philip_AMS]

Well DZ if your feeling like passing me any tips for my next pair of trousers I would be very grateful.

I think I have been looking at iron work with an upside down view and now realize that of course when seams are iron worked with stretching that this is causing a shortness in another length even though officially you haven't shortened anything...it's been a tough learning curve but a very good one.

Just a thought but does anyone when measuring someone take a measure down the back leg over the buttocks to figure out how much to aim for in stretching out the in and outseam?

[Der Zuschneider]

No. This is solved by the cutting system and calculation of 'Spaltdurchmesser'.
To explain the calculation of the Spaltdurchmesser is almost impossible and depends of each cutting system.

[Arsène]

Good evening everyone,

Long time without contributing... I had my camera with me when doing these pants. Two pictures of the iron work.

The front:

Attached Files

•  Travail-au-fer-du-pantalon-devant-1080p.jpg   299.45KB   79 downloads

Edited by Arsène, 23 April 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Arsène]

The back:

Attached Files

•  Travail-au-fer-du-pantalon-dos-1080p.jpg   331.19KB   66 downloads

Edited by Arsène, 23 April 2014 - 09:49 AM.