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Chanel style jacket sleeve and armscye


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#1 Failla

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 05:51 AM

For a couple of years now I draft my patterns using Muller & Sons system. I worship this system - it gave me the possibility to draft perfectly fitted to my hourglass shape patterns for woven dresses and blouses. Now I am at the point I want to move to fitted Chanel style jackets but have trouble with achieving a look of Chanel sleeve and armscye area. I drafted and muslined  Muller's narrow dress sleeve with an elbow dart but it is all  wrong - wrong sleeve's cup, wrong armscye, sleeve is too wide. If someone can point me in right direction what kind of Muller's sleeve I should draft so my sleeve cup/sleeve/armscye look like on this picture of Chanel style jacket. Also, I do not know exactly how many seams should be in a sleeve for this look? Two? Well,I heard about 3 seam sleeve Chanel jackets..I also understand that my armscye depth should be minimal. How minimal? 19-20cm?Thank you. 

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#2 posaune

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 07:21 AM

You must do a high armhole. 1 cm - 1.5 cm down from measured Rh. You can take a 2 piece with an "Einzug" at elbow about 1.5 cm. And you can  change it to 3 piece sleeve. Like in the pic.

Let us know how it went.

lg

posaune

looking at this pic don not forget the shoulder pad. Claire Schaefer is the specialist for Chanel - maybe she has time to write more.

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Edited by posaune, 11 November 2014 - 07:23 AM.

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#3 Claire Shaeffer

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 07:39 AM

Posaune,

I'm a specialist only because I've examined so many and I own a nice collection which I use for research. 

 

I could only download one item the layout for the sleeve parts. What is the source for the attachment?

What is Rh and "Einzug"

 

Based on the Chanel jackets I have examined, here are some observations relating to the sleeve.

Many have a narrower undersleeve. The undersleeve is usually cut as shown on a slight bias or off grain.

 

This draft shows the front sleeve on a slight bias.I have a jacket with that cut on the sleeve. Most are cut with straight grain at the center on the frt and back.

 

The sleeves are often very narrow. Very few have "darting" at the top of the center seam. Then at the elbow they tend to narrow. Sometimes one side more than the other. 

 

A few lap back over front. Some have rounded overlaps and some have no underlap. 

 

In the 1950s, the vent was on the top sleeve with no center seam. 

 

Sadly my skills are really for construction and I'm only an adequate patternmaker--not good enough to write a good sleeve draft.


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#4 Schneidergott

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 05:19 PM

How about this for a start?

 

15577308509_a6e7b3a372_o.jpg

 

For the full crown you will need darts at the top:

 

15763155325_395febafb9_o.jpg

 

Whether you do a sleeve with 1, 2 or more seams is up to you.


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#5 posaune

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 11:50 PM

Hi Claire,

you are a specialist - I have only seen 1 original in my life. The information I have are from older ladies tailors. The Rh is the armhole depth. The pattern drawing was a from a Vogue pattern.

and SG

Yes, but at elbow it should be 1.5 inward at both sides which the second sleeve pic surely has, which gives you a real tight sleeve.

lg

posaune


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#6 Failla

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 03:11 PM

Thank you everyone. posaune, unfortunately I cant open your link. If you don't mind please repost it maybe in different format. Thx



#7 eboli

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 05:38 AM

Claire is a noble and humble person so she hasn't mentioned that the outline posaune has posted is from her very Vogue pattern 8804..... :hi:

 

I think that Winifred Aldrich gives a fine clue. "Construct as for a single darted head but extel line to center of hemline. Separate the sections. Curve the seamline outwards 0,5 cm as shown." (Pattern Cutting for Women's Tailored Jackets. Oxford: Blackwell, 2002. p.110-111)

Maybe 0,5cm isn't enough and surely the parts of the uppersleeve should be wider so that the undersleeve becomes narrower, but I think that a darted head is a good point to start. Of course you have to form that "dart" by pressing, haven't you, Claire?

 

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#8 Claire Shaeffer

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 10:22 AM

It's often easier to do something than it is to write about it; however, I need written instructions for converting a 2-piece sleeve to a 3-piece and would appreciate your help. I would appreciate your input.

 

Since my reader is usually using a commercial pattern, I'll use the upper sleeve and under sleeve from a pattern. You can use any pattern. 

1. Mark all notches etc. on the seamlines and trim away the seam and hem allowances.

2. Upper sleeve: draw a line at the center on grain. Mark the top of the vent and a notch at the elbow.

3. Under sleeve: draw a line at the center on grain.

4. Place the under sleeve on top of the upper sleeve right sides tog. Pin the centers together.

5. Tape the seams together.

6. Draw a line parallel to the back fold and 1 3/4" away.

7. Draw a line parallel to the front fold and 1 3/4" away. This is the new under sleeve. Trace the grainline.

8. Cut the pattern apart at the center and the new seamlines. 

 

The Chanel sleeves often taper toward the wrist. This can be on the front and back or just the front. Some are completely straight and a few taper toward the armscye. 

 

Hopefully, you'll play around with this and post your results and any corrections. 

Happy holidays, Claire


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#9 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 09:38 AM

This sleeve is quite narrow, if it is any use to you. It is drafted in the armhole, so the armhole of your own jacket draft will do if you replicate the straight lines for the chest, back pitch and front and back scye.

 

Two Piece Sleeve. - Top-Sleeve
Redraw the shape of the armhole from the ladies jacket  pattern onto a clean sheet of paper, at the same time squaring the bust line (D.O.S.) the back scye line, and the mid depth of scye 1ine.
Locate point A (the front pitch position) 2cm up from the bust line and touching the front armhole, point B on the front shoulder end, point C on the back shoulder end, point D on the mid-depth of  scye line. (This is the back pitch position,) and point E on the intersection of back scye line and bust line.
Square up and down from the bust line, through point A and  locate point 0 on the line squared up from A and the extended mid-depth of scye line. Locate point 1 on the bust line 2 c/m below A.
Measure in a straight line, from A to B and C to D. Add the two  totals together, then deduct 2.5 c/m.
Apply this measurement diagonally from point A across towards the mid-depth of scye line beyond point D, and locate point 2.   Point 3 is mid-way 0 and 2.
Point 4 is squared up from point 3 and measures 2/3 the distance of C to D.  Draw a line from 2 to 4, and a line from 4 to A.
Locate F where line 4 to A, crossed line 0 to D.
Square down from 2 the sleeve length minus the half-back  measurement,locate point 5. Square across from 5 to intersect the line squared down from A.
Using point 2 as a pivot, swing across from point 5 and locate point 6 on the line squared down from A.
Measure back from 6 and locate point 7 on the line squared across from 5.
(This measure equals 1/3 of the total scye circumference and determines the cuff width, this can be altered to taste.)
Locate point 8 mid-way between point A and 6.(elbow line)
Square across from 8 towards line 2 to 5 (for elbow position.)  9 is 1 c/m from 8 on this line, 10 is 4 c/m from 9.
11 is located on the line squared from 2 to 5 and elbow line.
and 13 are 2 c/m each side of point 1, on the bust line.
Square a short line at right angles both ways from point 6.
14 and 15 are 2 cm either side of point 6 on this line.
Now shape the top sleeve from 2 with a slight curve, through  point 4 towards A, curving approximately 1/3 the distance of O to F down into A and through into point 12. Connect 12 to 9 and 9 to 14.
Curve from point 2 down  into point 11 and continue down into point 7. Connect 7  to 14.
(This completes the top sleeve.) 

Under-sleeve.
Locate point 16 mid-way between point 2 and D. Strike a 45 degree angle from E into the under scye.
Curve from point 13 around the under scye until you reach the line struck from E, curving from this point into point 16. Point 17 is 1.5c/m from point 11.
Point 18 is 1 c/m from point 7.
Curve from 16 into 17 and continue down into point 18.  Connect 13 to 10 and 10 into point 15. Connect 15 to 18.  (At point 13 leave a little angle equal to a seams width,as it runs up into the under-arm. See angle at 12 to A!)

(This completes the under-sleeve).

 

Sleeve pitches.

Mark a pitch on the top-sleeve at point A.
Mark sleeve pitch G from point 2 (this measures 1.5 c/m more than  the distance between C and D.)
Mark sleeve pitch S where the crown of the top-sleeve intersects  line F to 0.
Mark a corresponding pitch mark M on the front armhole, opposite  point 0.
When the sleeve is sewn into the armhole, the front pitch A will  match the front pitch of the jacket. The sleeve pitch S will match the armhole pitch M. The sleeve pitch G will
match the shoulder seam of the jacket. The hind arm seam of the jacket will match the back pitch D.

The sleeve crown fullness  will be eased in between each of these points to give an even shape to the finished sleeve.

 

Ladies-Two-piece-Sleeve_zpsf0dde14a.jpg


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#10 necchi

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 01:59 PM

I see that last post is from February, but I couldn't resis


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#11 tailleuse

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 08:15 AM

I see that last post is from February, but I couldn't resist.

 

 

I love this video and never tire of watching it.


Edited by tailleuse, 02 July 2015 - 08:16 AM.

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#12 Failla

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Posted 12 October 2015 - 12:23 PM

Mansie Wauch, I am trying (after trying other sleeve drafts) to draft your sleeve. My jacket muslin has a front princess shoulder seam. I was wondering if I have to close that shoulder bust dart on paper and open it maybe on a side  (make side bust dart) just for purpose of transferring the armscye outline in order to draft a sleeve. Right now when I place a side panel pattern armscye seams way off. Point B "leans" to the left way too much. I am thinking this is not right....Or it is does not matter?


Edited by Failla, 12 October 2015 - 01:04 PM.


#13 Claire Shaeffer

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Posted 12 October 2015 - 11:14 PM

Although the video is very interesting, this is a ready-to-wear jacket. Fusible hem interfacings and machine stitched labels are not used in haute couture. 


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#14 tailleuse

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 01:33 AM

Although the video is very interesting, this is a ready-to-wear jacket. Fusible hem interfacings and machine stitched labels are not used in haute couture. 

 

The title of the video says only "The Making of a Little Black Jacket", not that it's couture.


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#15 Failla

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:27 AM

Mansie Wauch, it says in your draft  "Square down from 2 the sleeve length minus the half-back  measurement".... What measurement is "half-back measurement"? Thank you






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