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Drafting a basic (sleeveless) bodice


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#19 Hot needle &

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 04:17 AM

I don't have a quilting machine, but I'll have to try that sometime.


Nor do I! All my lockstitch machining is done on a 14 year old Janome Mystyle 22 (a relatively simple domestic).

As an old teacher of mine used to say "It's not the machine, it's the operator :Talking Ear Off: "

Edited by Hot needle &, 25 November 2010 - 04:19 AM.


#20 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 07:53 AM

Thanks for cheering me up!


When I talk about being in the third 'master pattern revision', it means that first 'master pattern' and the first two revisions included about 20 to 50 individual trial garments with each one requiring the draft of a new paper pattern. It may be arrogant of me, but during those years, I think I have gained quite a bit of experience in how to draft a pattern and how to do corrections for basic and obvious problems. For the problems I still see myself, in most cases I have no clue what to do about it, as each change I attempt (I haven't talked about sleeve fitting yet, mind you!) either makes the problem worse or inhibits movement. I am told by a friend that I imagine the problems, because *he* needs them pointed out. And yes, the experience I have gained in those past 6 years helps a lot.

I have a problem with all those store-bought or self-made doubles. The store-bought ones are not tall enough, they are geared at the average height at most (which would be 168cm here or 172 for 'tall' people). I am 181cm tall. In addition, they don't really allow the horizontal balance lines (bust line, waist line) to be shifted higher or lower. The self-made doubles all require help from someone in making them. I don't have that help.


About 6 years ago I started with the Pepin draft (which I think is proportional). By now I have developed my own order of drafting, which still resembles the Pepin draft but by now has incorporated a number of things learned from other systems. Also, going with a new drafting system usually requires the measurements taken a tiny bit differently or measurements that I just don't have and cannot take myself (talk about distortion). It was hard enough finding someone to do the latest set for me.

As for the gazillion auxiliary measures: In the lastest revision I am using the basic measures for the draft. I have found out that those auxiliary measurements are indeed not correct (and I did not really expect them to be, given that they were taken by someone who doesn't have a clue about pattern making and is old enough to forget the instruction to always go to the marked line/point we had indicated earlier), but they have given me a sense that there may be something wrong with the toile. And yes, so far something was wrong. Also, those auxiliary ones are not accurate enough to influence where I put something, even in my latest draft which looks almost good in fabric. But they are in fair proximity to the 'real thing'.

Yes, I own the 'Perfect fit' book and still use it as a reference. I had discarded the 'fit for real people' for several reasons. The book I use most is the Natalie Bray book, because she gives pages of reasoning for the changes she proposes (sometimes I have to switch to her patternmaking book, which also contains reasoning). When given reasoning, I am able to apply the principle (after all, I am a mathematician - we tend to always apply principles). The problem is that none of those books really addresses what to do when you have a differing left and right side. For instance, my first full pattern had the darts in the actual length indicated by the measurement (left side higher than right side by a few centimeters). Boy, did that look bad in the muslin! For some reason I had thought that the different height would not be visible. So now one dart is shorter than the true measurement, and the other longer. I trip on things like that. And none of the books warns about it.

This weekend, I hope to find the spare time to get the current pattern into a shape where I don't see problems anymore. Maybe you will. But then the fun will really start - when I try to get the sleeve in!



Reading about your pattern problem, I feel that there are several factors to take into account.

1 Your height, if you draft a proportional pattern for your bust size, your armhole depth will be too short, resulting in drags at armhole. To remedy this you need to use a size larger or even two sizes larger for the correct armhole depth and maybe your waist length, from nape to waist. Being on the tall side you will need greater length at these areas.

2 From your description of your body shape you need greater back balance from your bust line to neck. To remedy this you need to mark in the chest line on the back pattern, measure the distance from this line to the nape of neck and divide the measurement in two and mark in a second line across to the back armhole.
Now comes the tricky part! You can either slash and open each line or you can pivot the lines. This is what you need to do. On the chest line, pivot from the top of side seam, advance the top section of the pattern 1cm upwards at the centre back, mark the back seam to the half way line. Next, pivot the pattern in the same way from the armhole position and open the second line up 1cm, remark the top section of the pattern. This will give you the extra length needed in the back section and will also bring the pattern over to fit the neck section.
This will give you a more rounded seam at centre back and is not good for stripe or checked fabrics. If you wish to use stripe or checks, the best way for these is to mark around the top of the pattern from back neck to shoulder end and move the pattern down 1.5 or 2cm and then remark the rest of the pattern.
Whatever you do to the back you must do the reverse to the front, i.e. mark around the front from front neck to shoulder and move the pattern up a like amount, then remark the rest of the pattern.
If you use the first method, then you need to mark the chest line and pivot from the front side seam, only instead of opening the pattern, you need to take the required amount out. This will also solve the problem of your pattern swinging open at the front.

3 The difference between the two shoulder heights can be resolved by adjusting the pattern for a dropped right shoulder. This adjustment can be found elsewhere on the forum.


I hope this makes sense to you, but I am sure you have arrived at a stage to understand the logic!

The height factor is quite importent in fitting and in some instances it is better to make your pattern larger in size to give a more regular look for your height.

Edited by MANSIE WAUCH, 25 November 2010 - 07:56 AM.


#21 tailleuse

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 08:54 AM

That's why I started to thread trace with brightly colored silk thread.

Why not use basting thread, that is what it is for. Basting thread is made of short cotton fibers that are to short for permanent sewing. Since the fibers are too short they found a good use for them- basting thread and other non-permanent reasons. This is also why the thread is cheaper.


Actually, some sources recommend using silk thread for this purpose because it is easier to remove if you sew over it. Cotton thread can "bleed" into the fabric.

I had a project in which I hand overcast a lace motif on organza. First, I had to base the medallion in place. I did that with red thread, because it was easy to see. I spent a lot of time removing red hairs when I was done.

I tend to use white basting thread for regular basting and colored silk thread or cotton thread to mark darts, notches, and hems.

In addition "basting thread" is not a set term. I have some that looks like your basic cotton and some that's wiry and coarse. I usually prefer to use white, but in France pink and blue apparently are popular colors, at least in dress making.

I never spend money just to spend money. I spend it to get better results at my level.

Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#22 tailleuse

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 08:56 AM

Nor do I! All my lockstitch machining is done on a 14 year old Janome Mystyle 22 (a relatively simple domestic).

As an old teacher of mine used to say "It's not the machine, it's the operator :Talking Ear Off: "


I'm not a quilter. The only time I've ever seen anyone do freestyle quilting was with a $1,400 Bernina that had a special attachment.

This "operator" works pretty hard when she has the time and opportunity.

Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#23 tailleuse

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 08:59 AM

The self-made doubles all require help from someone in making them. I don't have that help.



If you think the self-made doubles would help (I have doubts about whether they're worth the effort), then you have to find the help.

When Threads did another article on this, people in the comments discussed getting together to help each other. Or you could try something like Craigslist.

Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#24 Lasska

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 02:00 PM

Dear Ct3d, I have the same problem with my body: scoliosis, my right shoulder is 20mm lower than left one. But I never had problem to draft a bodice block. Even my first one at school was almost perfect. I never tried to do asymmetrical block. What for? My body is asymmetrical and I don’t want to show it, I want to hide it. If make symmetrical block for the higher shoulder and use one thin shoulder pad, nobody ever notice your body is not perfect. But if build a pattern separately for both sides of the body it will show imperfection.
Anyway that is your decision what to do.
I post here photo wich may be help you with an idea how to take measurements.
It’s good to take your photo and scale it in the graphic program as an AutoCAD or Rhinoceros. Also its give an idea how to correct problems.
Attached File  186.JPG   103.73KB   109 downloads
And here is my symmetrical bodice block for my asymmetrical body. Fits perfect :Batting Eyelashes:

Attached Files


Edited by Lasska, 25 November 2010 - 02:08 PM.


#25 greger

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 03:10 PM

Reading about your pattern problem, I feel that there are several factors to take into account.

1 Your height, if you draft a proportional pattern for your bust size, your armhole depth will be too short, resulting in drags at armhole. To remedy this you need to use a size larger or even two sizes larger for the correct armhole depth and maybe your waist length, from nape to waist. Being on the tall side you will need greater length at these areas.

The height factor is quite importent in fitting and in some instances it is better to make your pattern larger in size to give a more regular look for your height.


For bought patterns you don't recommend cutting and spreading the pattern where needed?

#26 ct3d

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 05:30 PM

If you think the self-made doubles would help (I have doubts about whether they're worth the effort), then you have to find the help.
When Threads did another article on this, people in the comments discussed getting together to help each other. Or you could try something like Craigslist.

No, I don't think it would help me much, if at all. I think that my current way of doing it (pin-fitting first, then fitting a sewn attempt, both in front of a mirror, and then rechecking via photos) is a good way for me. My big problem is to get the good basic pattern. I think that developing a different style from it is relatively easy. That style will only show fitting problems when the basic sloper was wrong to begin with. Otherwise the concepts shown in all the womens' patternmaking books make a lot of sense to me. :-)

My body is asymmetrical and I donít want to show it, I want to hide it.

Right. But I intend to camouflage my asymmetrical body by chosing asymmetrical designs/styles. In addition, your posture looks quite different from mine, which makes a big difference, in my opinion. (Oh, and you're much braver than I am in showing yourself...:-)

1 Your height, if you draft a proportional pattern for your bust size, your armhole depth will be too short, resulting in drags at armhole. To remedy this you need to use a size larger or even two sizes larger for the correct armhole depth and maybe your waist length, from nape to waist. Being on the tall side you will need greater length at these areas.
2 From your description of your body shape you need greater back balance from your bust line to neck.
3 The difference between the two shoulder heights can be resolved by adjusting the pattern for a dropped right shoulder. This adjustment can be found elsewhere on the forum.

The height factor is quite importent in fitting and in some instances it is better to make your pattern larger in size to give a more regular look for your height.

Mansie,
I understand what you're telling me, even though I will have to do some digesting with the pattern right in front of me. I *think* I have done what you're describing, even if it is via some changes that didn't help (much). Actually, not only is my (disproportionate) height a factor, I think the other thing that makes it hard is that I am *very* slender (in all the wrong places). In attempt no.4 the balance was indeed wrong, and I have since adjusted the shoulder seams. But I think the bigger factor was that I had to 'tilt' the upper front outwards as a whole in relation to the lower front. The actual measurement is still the one I started with. Same for the back, which in a mirror looks quite nice to my eyes.

Attempt no.7 is my next hope of having gotten it right, and I want to cut that one tonight. If all goes well, I'll progress to the 'taking pictures' stage in fitting, at which point y'all come in :-)

Also, the armhole depth is indeed not all that big (the full measurement around the armhole will probably be just the cap width needed to move my arm :-( ), but drag lines haven't been a problem in the past. Pouching in the lower back armscye was, and I have always thought that it came from too wide a 'bust measurement' in back. Once I decreased that measurement, I could not move the arms anymore, while the sleeve was hanging 'perfectly'. We'll get to that later. :-)

At this point I think I better show you what my body (and posture) look like. I am standing really relaxed. Even a more upright (and in the long run uncomfortable - can you say back aches) stance will not change that my tummy goes out further than my bust. At best my rounded back - those are the shoulder blade bones, by the way, not fat - will come in one vertical line with the butt, but that's it. Oh, and one of the (men's) threads dealing with different postures was showing that a vertical line through the ears is supposed to be in the middle from a side view. My head is thrust forward quite a bit, so that line would be in front of my arms.

#27 Lasska

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 07:31 PM

(Oh, and you're much braver than I am in showing yourself...:-)

That is not me, just a pic from internet :)

#28 posaune

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 09:16 PM

ct3d
your figur is indeed very hard to fit. To help you, you can do a plumb line marking on the body. Best is the "Armvortrittslinie". A friend must hold a band with a weightat the end at your front shoulder so that the band touches the place, where the flesh fold is. Now mark with a pin on the waist and hip where that band goes by. then measure the distance at bust at waist and at hip to the center front.
Or you can determine from side view how much your bum shoves into front comparing a plumb line drawn vertical to the floor from the shoulder blades.

The irony is that you must use a belly draft for front because of belly is standing before bust.

The asymmetric fitting follows later

lg
posaune

#29 ct3d

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 09:49 PM

your figur is indeed very hard to fit. To help you, you can do a plumb line marking on the body. Best is the "Armvortrittslinie". A friend must hold a band with a weightat the end at your front shoulder so that the band touches the place, where the flesh fold is. Now mark with a pin on the waist and hip where that band goes by. then measure the distance at bust at waist and at hip to the center front.
Or you can determine from side view how much your bum shoves into front comparing a plumb line drawn vertical to the floor from the shoulder blades.
The irony is that you must use a belly draft for front because of belly is standing before bust.
The asymmetric fitting follows later

I did that line marking on my body (or rather, I had it done on me). And I had held that weighted band ("Lot") down my side. Except that I held it right beneath my arm, on each side. Then I had a line drawn down my side to mark the side seam, and asked to use that line for all the measuring. For the front, I got the same distances from the side to the middle, so I must have found a good point beneath each arm. :-) I was "decorated" with lots of lines!

#30 posaune

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 11:37 PM

Ct3D
It is important to use that fold place at front, direct at the hinge (Word?). That is one the few places which is good to locate on the body. It is a reference point. It is used with digital laser measurements too. And from LENASSI! my favorite cutter.

Lg
posaune

#31 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 06:16 AM

No, I don't think it would help me much, if at all. I think that my current way of doing it (pin-fitting first, then fitting a sewn attempt, both in front of a mirror, and then rechecking via photos) is a good way for me. My big problem is to get the good basic pattern. I think that developing a different style from it is relatively easy. That style will only show fitting problems when the basic sloper was wrong to begin with. Otherwise the concepts shown in all the womens' patternmaking books make a lot of sense to me. :-)


Right. But I intend to camouflage my asymmetrical body by chosing asymmetrical designs/styles. In addition, your posture looks quite different from mine, which makes a big difference, in my opinion. (Oh, and you're much braver than I am in showing yourself...:-)


Mansie,
I understand what you're telling me, even though I will have to do some digesting with the pattern right in front of me. I *think* I have done what you're describing, even if it is via some changes that didn't help (much). Actually, not only is my (disproportionate) height a factor, I think the other thing that makes it hard is that I am *very* slender (in all the wrong places). In attempt no.4 the balance was indeed wrong, and I have since adjusted the shoulder seams. But I think the bigger factor was that I had to 'tilt' the upper front outwards as a whole in relation to the lower front. The actual measurement is still the one I started with. Same for the back, which in a mirror looks quite nice to my eyes.

Attempt no.7 is my next hope of having gotten it right, and I want to cut that one tonight. If all goes well, I'll progress to the 'taking pictures' stage in fitting, at which point y'all come in :-)

Also, the armhole depth is indeed not all that big (the full measurement around the armhole will probably be just the cap width needed to move my arm :-( ), but drag lines haven't been a problem in the past. Pouching in the lower back armscye was, and I have always thought that it came from too wide a 'bust measurement' in back. Once I decreased that measurement, I could not move the arms anymore, while the sleeve was hanging 'perfectly'. We'll get to that later. :-)

At this point I think I better show you what my body (and posture) look like. I am standing really relaxed. Even a more upright (and in the long run uncomfortable - can you say back aches) stance will not change that my tummy goes out further than my bust. At best my rounded back - those are the shoulder blade bones, by the way, not fat - will come in one vertical line with the butt, but that's it. Oh, and one of the (men's) threads dealing with different postures was showing that a vertical line through the ears is supposed to be in the middle from a side view. My head is thrust forward quite a bit, so that line would be in front of my arms.


I think you should take notice of what Lasska says in her post. It would be better to hide the uneven shoulder with an extra pad.

The images you show are very round in the back, and I think you could adjust the balance by increasing the back from breast line to neck point, also decreasing the front the same amount, as I have already stated.

You will never get perfect fit, no matter how hard you try.
If you drape the figure instead of making too close a fit, you still get clothes that you should be happy with.

Good luck with your future attempts.

#32 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 06:19 AM

Well they used to have a cure for this in the middle ages

Posted Image
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#33 Martin Stall

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 06:45 AM

Well they used to have a cure for this in the middle ages

Posted Image


Oh, you're so medieval, Jason! :rofl:
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#34 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 07:04 AM

All because the solution is old, does not mean it can't be applied to today's body :D
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#35 Hot needle &

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 08:31 AM

J. Maclochlainn, on 25 November 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

Well they used to have a cure for this in the middle ages





Methinks you are in the wrong century. :Batting Eyelashes: Paned trunkhose is Tudor - 16th century.

Medieval style is more your 'men in tights - Robin Hood' look :Big Grin:

Posted Image

Edited by Hot needle &, 26 November 2010 - 08:34 AM.


#36 ct3d

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 03:18 PM

You will never get perfect fit, no matter how hard you try.
I think you should take notice of what Lasska says in her post. It would be better to hide the uneven shoulder with an extra pad.

Now *that* is really cheering me up! :-(
No amount of shoulder padding will help me with my uneven hips. Any symmetrical pattern (which is where I come from) will emphasize that one side is higher than the other.

Also, I have to say that I really don't find torture pictures funny at all in context to *anyone's* figure.




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