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Mansie Draft - trousers with pleats


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#1 Ahmed

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 02:46 AM

Hello,

 

I hate my big thighs.

I struggle to find decent trousers off the rack.

I know I need to lose weight.

I'm struggling to draft a pattern that fits me well.

It's really really hard

Can you please help!

 

I've tried Muller & Sohn, T&C and Mansie's systems but they all resulted in awful gaping pockets, so after a bit of research I read that front pleats/darts help with that.

 

So I've stuck to Mansie's system for its simplicity and here we are.

 

By the way this pattern will be used to make cotton chinos, I rarely wear wool trousers.

 

My stats:

Height 167cm

Waist 108cm

Seat 116cm

Inseam 71cm

Rise 27cm (used the amount from an old trouser, my actual measured rise is about 21cm but when I used that the trousers didn't even go higher than my ass)

Thighs 73cm

 

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Edited by Ahmed, 21 June 2017 - 02:50 AM.


#2 Ahmed

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 02:49 AM

The pockets are still gaping a little, but I think it's because the trousers need to be held up with braces. When I pull the waist band they appear fine. I'm not sure what to do.

 

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Edited by Ahmed, 21 June 2017 - 02:55 AM.

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#3 greger

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 08:44 AM

The pattern system is a proportional pattern design. He didn't include the many directions for disproportional bodies. Even those who look like they have proportionate bodies really don't. There are directions for some of these adjustments to the proportional patterns to fit the rest of us. Like many people waist lines are larger in a number of ways. Some protrude out front, others include the side, and some are all the way around. The front needs to be drawn out and up (there are different methods depending on what the needs are). Some need that and the side with less curve to straight. The directions must be around here somewhere. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head and the diagrams help to. You can go looking for that. It is always a good idea to pin the bottom of the pants up. This helps to show better how the pant legs are really hanging. I'd also make the knees a bit wider until you know more about fitting. You may need more room at the thickest part of the calfs in back. The darts probably need to be smaller in width. The center back is to high which means the seat seam needs to be changed. Back fork may be better a quarter inch lower. The sideseams from the knee up to the seat level has a lot of curve to it. 

 

Some tailors add half inch inlay down the back sideseam. Always add three quarters of an inch down the back inlay. Most the seat seam has a wide inlay that disappears toward the bottom, or not so wide across the bottom seat seam. For normal hem two inches. If you think you may need to add height at waist add inlay there.  


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#4 SPOOKIETOO

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 03:06 PM

Ahmed - for those of us that are not proportional, we practically need to be engineering marvels to accommodate our issues.  I have found studying my own photos analytically - to compare them to what is considered "normal" posture stances - very helpful for understanding fitting issues. Often it isn't just a matter of a body part being too large or too small, but more a question of something being out of alignment.

 

Greger - I continue to study these forums to educate my eye.  I feel like the back  darts need to be more centered - perhaps as much as 1-1/2" to 2" to the center on each side. Am I seeing this wrong? And while the center back is considerably higher than the front (balance issue), to my eye it seems the center back might actually need to come up 1/2" or so. The fork and back seat curve do need work.

 

Also - with the pulling on the pockets - I think I am seeing a slightly raised/fuller right hip - pulling is much less pronounced on the left. This is my own problem. Any additional info for dealing with this? Release the side inlays only?


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#5 lngn2

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 06:31 PM

Would two darts in the back (ie. adding them on and moving the outseam out by the same) work - it would allow them to be a bit straighter over the hips. I say this as I found this draft very difficult to fit!

 

Another thought - there's a thread here asking a similar question (http://www.cutterand... trouser draft) suggesting trying a corpulent draft from here (http://www.cutterand...p?showtopic=339). Perhaps that might help?


Edited by lngn2, 21 June 2017 - 06:38 PM.

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#6 LuKas02

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:37 PM

Hello Ahmed, first there is a style point that has to be mentioned : if you hate your big thighs, chinos are definitely not the type of trousers you want to wear. They are designed for straight legs and will emphasize any protuberant part of the body (be it thighs, calves, ass; any) instead of easing the lines of the body.

 

This being said, there are a few points, I see that can improve the overall result of your pattern as to what your goal is.

 

1- Do the cuffs at the bottom of the legs. You cannot get any good sense of the hang if you don't at list pin/baste them.

 

2- Always remember that trousers are a suspended structures, the suspension lines being the waist and the crotch. Consequently, these are those you want to spend most of your time working on.

So first, you have to improve the waist line. First, if you want to wear your trousers at this hight, eliminate the gap in the center front (Fig1 : F1) and if you want to wear it higher, create a incurved line (Fig1 : F2).

Second, you need to bring the side seam of the front panel up. Especially if you want to use a belt and not braces.

 

3- About the crotch line. Your fork angles are too acute. You need the sum of them to be 180° (Fig 2) in order to have a nice line.

You can achieve that by straightening your inseams. Fig 3 : Blue lines

Optionally, bring your front and back forks in, the girth at the crotch seems way too big. Also, you can lower fork point of the back panel. That way, you will also make sure that the back inseam is shorter than the front inseam (I would not recommend more than a 1 - 1.5 cm difference with cotton) which visaully doesn't seem to be the case in your draft (but I can be wrong on that). Fig 3 : green lines

 

4- I have concerns about the sideseam of the front panels between knees and seat. I find them to have too much curvature. This translates into the big gaping that can be seen above your knees. You need to smoothen that curve (Fig4 : blue lines)

 

5- Finally, you lack fabrics around your calves. You can round the back panels but that would take you away from you desire to do a chino pattern. Thus I would advise to just widen around the knee, which will help keep the straight line of the chino cut ant at the same time give some room to your calves.

 

When you have done all that and have trousers that hang good, you can concern with gaping pockets.

 

fig1.jpg

 

fig2.jpg

 

fig3.jpg

 

fig4.jpg


Edited by LuKas02, 21 June 2017 - 07:40 PM.

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#7 greger

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 05:47 AM

LuKas02, 

 

Do you know how to change a pattern from average to stub, stout or corpulent? His front waistline is not correct at all. It goes out at the sideseam way to far. Which means the line needs to be extended out in front. This means the front line from crotch to new front point is not long enough, or short. Therefore, it needs to be raised. Which now makes it to long. An arc could be drawn and the front below fitted. To get a perfect fit there is still one more question mark. There are a few forumals that get one into the ballpark, but they are not by default a home run. 



#8 Ahmed

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 03:15 AM

Hello guys!

 

Many thanks for the advice given.

 

I have made the side seams and inseams less curved, adjusted the fork angles so that they are both 90°. Moved the crotch points inward by around 1.5cm. Lowered the back crotch point down by 1cm (it was already lower than the front one by about 0.5cm). Moved the center back seam outwards by 0.75cm at the top.

 

So here we are!

The trousers have become too baggy for my liking, and we still have the extra loose fabric at the sides, near the knee. The waist is a little too big as well. I think I should have removed the pleats since I've made the hips wider by straightening the side seams.

 

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Edited by Ahmed, 23 June 2017 - 03:21 AM.


#9 Ahmed

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 03:18 AM

Here it is with braces, although for my final trousers I'd like to use side buckles to hold them in place.

 

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And this is what I'm trying to fit around, let me know if it's inappropriate, I'll remove them.

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Edited by Ahmed, 23 June 2017 - 03:33 AM.


#10 peterle

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 07:02 PM

You have to make some decisions I think.

Do you want to wear the trousers with braces or with a belt?

Where should the waistband rest? High at the back and under the belly at the front?

 

The last picture set tells me the seat seam must get scooped out a lot (like nearly always with the Mansie draft)

 After scooping out, look wether the back trousers are yet too long and therefore bulging at the back tighs. If yes, shift the knee notches of the back up for about 1,5 to 2cm. Ease the front in between inseam hight line and a point about 7cm above the knee line, and ease the back in between 5cm below the knee line and lets say 20cm above the hem.

 

Your waistband is too long. It should match  your waist measure ( make desicion #2! first)


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#11 Cbeck

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 08:04 AM

Hi Ahmed, nice one. 

 

I'm no expert but if I was to amend your pattern I would make the

 

outside seam less hippy, the run could be straightened out. Stand in the front of a mirror and have a look, do your quads sweep out and amend accordingly. 

I noticed your U.side and T.side waists differed by only 0.5cm but you have a 1cm dart + S/As on the U.Side

There is fullness on your topside near outside seam so if you measure how much, then you take out and reshape.

It also looks like your right side is bigger than your left which why your seat seam possibly doesnt run central, so you could when your cutting shift the block a little to accommodate this. 

 

CB line is could be shortened and uncrooked to take out some of that fullness, from my experience of my own rugby build with thick legs and glutes a double dart works a lot better than throwing more clothing into the area to shape over the backside. 

 

If you mark up 1cm up and down on the T.side and U.side respectively you can accommodate the shape of the foot which is currently disrupting the hang. 

 

The method you've used for your pleats tend to work better for slim cut trousers imo, but if you could give slashing and pivoting a go it might work better. 



#12 Ahmed

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 12:54 AM

Thank you Cbeck and Peterle.

 

I haven't abandoned this thread, I just accepted the reality that I have a lot of self learning to do on my own first before starting a thread like this. A lot of the advice given here was a little too advanced/difficult for me to understand to be honest.

 

I'm going through the trouser fitting articles that were created by Schneiderfrei, and I'll also try to work my way through the M&S Passformfehler book. Maybe then I'll be able to absorb the advice given by the experienced members here.






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