Jump to content


Photo

Tweaking a pattern.


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 woutervw

woutervw

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 16 posts

Posted 22 June 2017 - 01:06 AM

Hi,
 
Because of all the remarks about the fit of my art shirt, I decided to look at the fit of the patterns I use. One of the shirts I like has shrunk considerably - I forgot to wash the fabric first - and I would like to make it again. I used Vogue 8889 for that, and it's been the pattern I use for a fitted look. It uses two side panels.
 
I moved the shoulders forward a bit and moved the collar back. I still need to make the shoulders more narrow. What else should I consider? 
 

Photos (sorry, I could get the photos to show in this post)

 

Thanks in advance!



#2 gatto

gatto

    Umsie

  • Professional
  • Pip
  • 54 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Milano - Italy

Posted 22 June 2017 - 02:37 AM

I think is nice !

 

maybe you should try to shorten the back  (1 or 1,5 cm ) at the level of shoulder blades.

put some pins on it , on all the back, and see how it goes.

 

There are too many folds  at your lower back.

 

Anyway, my compliment !!

 

Gatto



#3 greger

greger

    Master

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,165 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Washington, USA

Posted 22 June 2017 - 05:55 AM

I didn't see any photos. Reading gator response it sounds like you have a straighter posture than the pattern. In general, though not always, excess in the back means shortness in the front. Not only length but, width, too. 



#4 Schneiderfrei

Schneiderfrei

    Pro

  • Senior Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 941 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Adelaide, Australia
  • Interests:learning and imagination

Posted 22 June 2017 - 09:05 AM

The first thing I would consider is adding a moderate amount of front balance.  The shirt swings up a little at the front and is pushing forwards into the back at the waist.  If you change this the fundamental look of the shirt will change for the better.

 

A lot of this action can happen in the area of the shoulder. So that the shape of the shirt pivots around the centre of the armhole.


Shell made out of gold
Found on a beach picked up and you held so close


#5 SPOOKIETOO

SPOOKIETOO

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 243 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 22 June 2017 - 11:43 AM

The best fitting aid I have for myself is the timer on my phone camera. When you take selfies you can't really evaluate your true stance and study things like a difference in shoulder height, etc.  The arm raised for the selfie throws things off.

 

I have two spots in the house where I can prop the phone on a piece of furniture (no tripod needed) and take upper body shots or full figure shots and I don't have to bring in extra lights.

 

I do like the looks of that pattern on you.



#6 dpcoffin

dpcoffin

    Apprentice

  • Professional
  • PipPip
  • 308 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brookings, Oregon, USA

Posted 22 June 2017 - 01:22 PM

Congrats, your muslin already looks better fitted than most of the shirts on earth:)

 

But here's my finicky opinions and what I'd do:

To address the balance issue, I'd remove the sleeves and open the side seams, then pinch out a tuck across the back as marked with the blue lines in back, first image. This will remove the bunching excess at the small of the back and, as you go further, will start to pivot the side seams backward, leveling out the crossgrain in front but probably requiring more circumference in front, indicated by the lower blue lines, same image. When you stand leaning back, the front winds up needing to be wider than the back if you want the side seams to be strictly vertical. The armholes will of course get smaller as a result, so just drop their bottom edges to get them back…but also see comments below about the wrinkled side seam.

 

These changes probably won't also fix what I see in the second image but the issues may look a little different afterwards.

It's clear your yoke IS a bit too long at each end, certainly by today's tighty-tighty standards, so I'd bring those ends in at least 0.5 inches; the armholes will come along, too, of course, which will make the sleeves tighter across the top of each arm. But that’s how it goes if you don't want relaxed yoke/sleeve-cap fit.

 

The back itself (and so the front, too) is too long on the left side in the second photo; I'd commit to having the pattern be asymmetrical, either taking out a wedge across each from centers to side seams (NOT a dart; I'd close the pattern to make the wedge go away), OR experiment with taking a deeper tuck on that side in the previous step…or maybe a bit of both?

 

Capto%202017-06-21_07-51-52_PM.png?dl=1

 

The yoke is also too long going into the neck, especially on the more wrinkled side, better seen in the right-hand pix here:

 

Capto%202017-06-21_07-25-02_PM.png?dl=1

 

I put these two pix together (the side-seam and neck) because in my view they're examples of the same problem: The garment is too long going into an obstructing body part (arm/neck), so it's bunching up around the body-part like water trying to stream around a tree trunk (we live on a river). Taking out some side-seam length as described above will help for the side seam, but in both situations, the most obvious thing to do is simply to cut the armhole lower and the neck wider, so the excess fabric bunching up is removed.

 

As I said, what I'd do; hope it's some use to you!


Edited by dpcoffin, 22 June 2017 - 01:32 PM.

  • woutervw, pptrg1 and Jacob like this

#7 gatto

gatto

    Umsie

  • Professional
  • Pip
  • 54 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Milano - Italy

Posted 22 June 2017 - 04:56 PM

These are the topics I like more !!

 

You see pictures, and you learn lot of things from the advices given from members !

 

Very interesting !

 

Thank you woutervw and to all the members here !

 

Gatto


  • Schneiderfrei likes this

#8 peterle

peterle

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 345 posts

Posted 22 June 2017 - 08:48 PM

I also think the shoulders are a little to wide as you mentioned. Also the front neckhole has to be scooped out a bit more to fit your neck.

 

But i don´t second a too long back balance. The back is bulging along the waistline and I´m pretty sure most of it could be pinned away along the waistline with a horizontal fish dart from sideseam to side seam across the back. This bulging is caused by a forward hip posture. Because of the vertical gaps of the tiles in the background I can see in the profile pics that your shoulders and your terriere don´t meet the same vertical line. Your hip is shifted forward.

For such a posture I would recommend a slight belly alteration for the front (although I´m sure your measurements don´t show a belly figure;i.e. your waist measure isn´t equal or higher than your chest measure). This will release the back and it will swing away a little. To get it closer to the body I would install two vertical darts in the back.

 

Especially for the armhole fitting, please make some pics without a raised arm.


  • Schneiderfrei and woutervw like this

#9 Schneiderfrei

Schneiderfrei

    Pro

  • Senior Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 941 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Adelaide, Australia
  • Interests:learning and imagination

Posted 22 June 2017 - 10:29 PM

Hoehlkreutz = hollow back


Shell made out of gold
Found on a beach picked up and you held so close


#10 zanzare

zanzare

    Umsie

  • Professional
  • Pip
  • 25 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:europe, germany
  • Interests:cutting, draping and tailoring
    all about male garment
    original working methods and costumes in general

Posted 12 July 2017 - 03:02 AM

I think is nice !
 
maybe you should try to shorten the back  (1 or 1,5 cm ) at the level of shoulder blades.
put some pins on it , on all the back, and see how it goes.
 
There are too many folds  at your lower back.
 
Anyway, my compliment !!
 
Gatto

There are many ways and it is not easy to judge by a photo.
Me personally I would not shorten the back around the shoulderblades, I think there you need more room vertically and horizontally for the shoulderblades, without making the shoulderseam any wider. The back is too long at the waistline and there I would shorten it instead.

You might also think about darts in the back for your waist and widen the hip area instead, it dose look a bit snugg there, that problem might be solved by shortening the back at waistline as mentioned before.

Edited by zanzare, 12 July 2017 - 03:07 AM.

  • Schneiderfrei likes this

#11 woutervw

woutervw

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 16 posts

Posted 03 August 2017 - 08:55 AM

Latest version. Trying to look sharp, I'm actually leaning backwards more than I would normally do. I'll have to keep that in mind next time I'm taking pictures.

 

pqvsNa.jpg

9wdlM6.jpg8ypg2f.jpgrjoGN3.jpg



#12 dpcoffin

dpcoffin

    Apprentice

  • Professional
  • PipPip
  • 308 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brookings, Oregon, USA

Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:27 AM

Untitled3.png?dl=1

 

 

IMHO, it looks generally better to me—you could tighten up around the armholes, at the risk of them feeling too tight, which some may feel is a sacrifice they're OK with; I wouldn't be!

 

But I'd definitely cut that collar band right off to let the unhindered fabric around the neck relax in, then mark the neckline only then, after all that fabric has been allowed to smooth out towards your neck; you'll no doubt have to clip into it a little so it can lay fully flat up to the neck. Right now, your neck is still pushing all the extra length away causing deep ripples on each side and in back.

 

If you want to contour the back to the hollow of your low back, you'll need darts as well as shaped side seams.

 

If you want it all to fall smoothly down beyond your hips across that concavity, it needs to be released (added to) at the sides from about your second-down drawn horizontal all the way down, so gravity can smooth everything out, then don't mess with that. In other words, ignore the back shape near the waist and go straight from shoulders to hips.

 

If you'll be wearing shirts from this pattern tucked in, maybe just let the sides out a bit below the waist and see how the drape above the belt suits you as is.


Edited by dpcoffin, 03 August 2017 - 09:35 AM.

  • Schneiderfrei likes this

#13 peterle

peterle

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 345 posts

Posted 03 August 2017 - 07:33 PM

I see two things:

First you have protruding shoulder bones causing draglines at the front from the should bone towards the chest. I would add some fabric in the front yoke seam at the outer halve to accomodate these bones. your yoke seam lines will have a slight S-form. (an approach would be to open the front yokes seams from the vertical line to the shoulder, keeping the rest closed. you will see how much the seams will gape)

This procedure will probably also relax the neckhole a bit., because the garment hangs only at the outer shoulders at the moment. the alteration will distribute the hang better.

The armhole seams at the shoulder are a bit to far out for my taste. I would reduce the shoulder width for about 1,5cm.

The protruding shoulder bone influences the sleeve also. I would shift the pitch point of the sleeve crown a bit to the front. the front sleeve crown line will be steeper, the back will be a bit shallower.

 

The second area is the back. The folds are caused by tightness (over the bum and at the love handles) and a forward hip posture(wich creates superflouos length across the center back in waist hight).Like dpcoffin writes, less waist nipping and back darts would help.



#14 Learner

Learner

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 122 posts

Posted 04 August 2017 - 02:55 AM

Trying to look sharp, I'm actually leaning backwards more than I would normally do.

 

This makes it hard to assess what's going on at the back of the shirt.

 

I think that at least some part of the issues that David and peterle have referred to in the neck and shoulder area are a result of the shirt having too much shoulder slope.  You have somewhat square shoulders, and almost all modern menswear designs have too much shoulder slope (basically, because the people that go on to work in the apparel industry are not being taught that men's bodies are not just women's bodies without breasts).

 

Do you specifically want a shirt with side gores, or do you just want a well-fitting shirt pattern?



#15 posaune

posaune

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,041 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Germany

Posted 04 August 2017 - 04:22 AM

I always give the tip for beginners: It is easier to test a fit with a shoulder seam (not with a yoke).
Then you have to open just one seam and not two.
It is essential that you do a belly alteration like Peterle said.
Look side view: the belly protrudes before the bust - needs more length and width -and a sway back alteration.
Your right side needs special attention see back-, right side- and front view.
lg
posaune
  • Dunc likes this

#16 woutervw

woutervw

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 16 posts

Posted 04 August 2017 - 04:38 AM

This makes it hard to assess what's going on at the back of the shirt.

 

Yes, I realized that after the photos were taken. I'll have to practice not paying attention to my posture when I'm trying to have a neutral posture. 

 

Do you specifically want a shirt with side gores, or do you just want a well-fitting shirt pattern?

 

I made this pattern a couple of years ago and to change the front from a hidden button placket to a normal front placket, I made a muslin. I liked this shirt so well that I finished it into a normal short sleeved shirt with a rainbow of buttons along the front. Silly me, I didn't wash the fabric first, so after the first wash, it doesn't fit me anymore. I want to make this shirt again, but now from real fabric. But before doing so, I figured I could try to make the fit as well as I can manage.

 

This shirt should be a slim-fit. And this pattern is the only one that comes close for me, so it's what I started with. At some point I'll try doing the same with my regular (loose) fitting pattern. So I'm not specifically married to this pattern, it's just the one that comes closest to the type of fit I was looking for.


Edited by woutervw, 04 August 2017 - 04:39 AM.


#17 woutervw

woutervw

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 16 posts

Posted 04 August 2017 - 04:45 AM

But I'd definitely cut that collar band right off to let the unhindered fabric around the neck relax in, then mark the neckline only then, after all that fabric has been allowed to smooth out towards your neck; you'll no doubt have to clip into it a little so it can lay fully flat up to the neck. Right now, your neck is still pushing all the extra length away causing deep ripples on each side and in back.

 

How do you mark where the band should be? It is a continuous grade, from shoulder to neck. Where do you determine where the shoulder stops and the neck starts?

 

 

If you want it all to fall smoothly down beyond your hips across that concavity, it needs to be released (added to) at the sides from about your second-down drawn horizontal all the way down, so gravity can smooth everything out, then don't mess with that. In other words, ignore the back shape near the waist and go straight from shoulders to hips.

 

If you'll be wearing shirts from this pattern tucked in, maybe just let the sides out a bit below the waist and see how the drape above the belt suits you as is.

 

I think I don't want to add a dart, and rather it just falls down. This will be worn tucked in and not tucked in. 



#18 woutervw

woutervw

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 16 posts

Posted 04 August 2017 - 04:51 AM

First you have protruding shoulder bones causing draglines at the front from the should bone towards the chest. I would add some fabric in the front yoke seam at the outer halve to accomodate these bones. 

 

Thanks, I hadn't even noticed that my bones do that. Now i wonder how much of that is because of me posing, versus my build. More time in front of the camera and mirror, I guess.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users