Jump to content


Photo

How high can armholes go?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
66 replies to this topic

#55 Nishijin

Nishijin

    Master

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,704 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Paris, France.
  • Interests:Mainly tailoring it seems, but my friends know better...

Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:16 AM

Does the fusing bubble already in the 2nd picture.

:blink:

This coat is clearly canvased, not fused...

BTW, I would not be surprised at all if japanese tailors had a german influence...
http://www.paulgrassart.com

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
Mark Twain

#56 ct3d

ct3d

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 50 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Germany

Posted 08 September 2010 - 05:36 PM

Well, it is possible to give this kind of mobility, but with a price : the one of a messy sleeve.
I must say I do not understand, as I can eat at the dinner table in my coat without problem.
Svenn, to be honnest, it seems to me that you are looking for something you read (on the internet, maybe), and not something real. Do you have any picture of a coat corresponding to your requirement ?

While I don't have a picture, I can relate to Svenns complaint. I have a very rounded back, stooping figure, and am not proportional in the least. For the past 6 years I have been struggling to get the sleeves (even in a blouse or dress) right. When the sleeve looks clean (on me) with arms hanging at my sides, I cannot even lift the arms enough to drive my car, much less sit all day hunched over my computer keyboard comfortably! And when they provide enough mobility, they look messy all the time (mostly the back - just like Westend breakdown). Which is alluded to in Harriet Pepins book from the forties and in the only good fitting book for women I have seen - Natalie Brays series on cutting/fitting.

Is it the general consensus that enough mobility (i.e. the sleeve wide enough - however that is accomplished) is contradictory to 'good fit' in terms of a clean sleeve? If so, I guess I have to just get used to the messy backs of my sleeves!

#57 ct3d

ct3d

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 50 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Germany

Posted 08 September 2010 - 05:37 PM

Well, it is possible to give this kind of mobility, but with a price : the one of a messy sleeve.
I must say I do not understand, as I can eat at the dinner table in my coat without problem.
Svenn, to be honnest, it seems to me that you are looking for something you read (on the internet, maybe), and not something real. Do you have any picture of a coat corresponding to your requirement ?

While I don't have a picture, I can relate to Svenns complaint. I have a very rounded back, stooping figure, and am not proportional in the least. For the past 6 years I have been struggling to get the sleeves (even in a blouse or dress) right. When the sleeve looks clean (on me) with arms hanging at my sides, I cannot even lift the arms enough to drive my car, much less sit all day hunched over my computer keyboard comfortably! And when they provide enough mobility, they look messy all the time (mostly the back - just like Westend breakdown). Which is alluded to in Harriet Pepins book from the forties and in the only good fitting book for women I have seen - Natalie Brays series on cutting/fitting.

Is it the general consensus that enough mobility (i.e. the sleeve wide enough - however that is accomplished) is contradictory to 'good fit' in terms of a clean sleeve? If so, I guess I have to just get used to the messy backs of my sleeves!

#58 Terri

Terri

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,026 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ontario Canada

Posted 09 September 2010 - 12:23 AM

There has to be some kind of balance in what people are after.
A closer fitting body will allow for a smaller and higher armhole, which may be ok in a blouse but not what we are looking for in a jacket.

Generally speaking a garment with a high armhole will allow less restriction than a low one. It also requires a careful and closer fit of the body. The cross back, cross front and shoulder width of the garment will also have to be closer to the body- they cannot really be oversized.

A sleeve needs to fit into the armhole - so it has a certain circumference. A narrow fitting sleeve will need to have a tall depth of crown and a wider sleeve a shallower depth of crown to be the same circumference.

The only other way to have a narrow sleeve with unimpeded movement (arms raised up) is to have a gusset.
If you want forward reaching ease you end up needing more length through the back seam of the sleeve.

A grown-on suit sleeve gusset is possible but hardly ever done except for us "costumers" :Whistle:

But the garment body and the sleeve need to be balanced and you should be able to achieve a normal range of movement.
Something is not right if you cannot raise your arms enough to drive your car :Thinking:

#59 Svenn

Svenn

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 100 posts

Posted 09 September 2010 - 02:29 AM

I cannot even lift the arms enough to drive my car, much less sit all day hunched over my computer keyboard comfortably!


I am luckier than you in that I can manage to strain my arms up to grab the steering wheel with only the moderate sensation that my jacket is about to explode into pieces ;)


The only other way to have a narrow sleeve with unimpeded movement (arms raised up) is to have a gusset.
If you want forward reaching ease you end up needing more length through the back seam of the sleeve.

A grown-on suit sleeve gusset is possible but hardly ever done except for us "costumers" :Whistle:


What exactly do you mean by that last remark and do you have a picture of what a gusset would look like?

A picture of what these 'messy' yet mobile, and fitted jackets would be great. Maybe there is a certain conductor or dancer out there?


I found these excerpts from thelondonlounge on ways to achieve mobility':


The ones I've seen mentioned include height of arm scye, amount of extra cloth fed in at the sleeve head and under the arm, using a "pleat" in the sleeve under the arm, the shape of the arm scye (vertical as seen from the front vs. teardrop-shaped, etc.) angle of sleeve set-in, width of shoulders (extended shoulders not helping mobility), and amount of drape at the blades in the back. There are no doubt others. "High armholes" may in some ways merely be a shorthand expression.


and a mysterious thing known as "sleeve set-in angle" :


In addition to high arm holes, does not freedom of movement also depend on the angle at which the sleeve is sewn to the shoulder? I've read somewhere that ballroom dance costumes have sleeves at a 35-45 degree angle. The normal angle was described I think at 10 degrees. Can anyone add to this information?


Anyway, I'm not so much interested in talking about this in the abstract, especially without pictures, so among a couple leads I've been given by helpful individuals as to tailors capable of mobile yet fitted shoulders is Steven Hitchcock, who has an excerpt and photo on it here: http://www.thesavile...arm_hloes_.html ...Hopefully he can do the sorts of strategies mentioned in those londonlounge excerpts.
Posted Image

#60 Nishijin

Nishijin

    Master

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,704 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Paris, France.
  • Interests:Mainly tailoring it seems, but my friends know better...

Posted 09 September 2010 - 02:35 AM

"Sleeve angle" refers to the angle made by the sleeve and the body when you see them from the front. It is governed directly by the crown height : the more high is the crown, the more vertical is the sleeve (and thus, clean).

As ballroom dancers have their arms "opened" while dancing, the sleeve is cut with a more opened angle, meaning a shorter crown (so as not to have pleats at the top of the sleevehead while dancing). It will be a dirty sleeve when at rest along the body.
http://www.paulgrassart.com

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
Mark Twain

#61 Svenn

Svenn

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 100 posts

Posted 09 September 2010 - 04:00 AM

It will be a dirty sleeve when at rest along the body.


Thanks Nishijin... do you have a pic of what this would look like? creases and pleats every which way, or perhaps a billowy effect near the armscye? could such dirtiness be masked by using an extra thick or heavy fabric?

#62 Kerry

Kerry

    Apprentice

  • Moderator
  • PipPip
  • 308 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Reading, UK

Posted 09 September 2010 - 05:11 AM

What exactly do you mean by that last remark and do you have a picture of what a gusset would look like?

A picture of what these 'messy' yet mobile, and fitted jackets would be great. Maybe there is a certain conductor or dancer out there?


I did a basic rundown in a blog post on gussets and grown on dancers sleeves. This was an extreme example, the dancer was getting really bad critique over raising his shoulders when dancing so the producers wanted the jacket to stay as low as possible and not to exaggerate the problem.

Obviously for everyday wear one would not have nearly as a dramatic shape as this had, to avoid a pleat in the back. For a personally tailored jacket the fit would be better and the armhole (hopefully) would not be so low to start with as this cheap jacket had.

#63 Schneidergott

Schneidergott

    Master

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,681 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scotland

Posted 09 September 2010 - 06:34 AM

When we 're talking about wide sleeves set into tiny armholes we must not forget the type of cloth used. The softer the cloth is the more material can be brought into the armhole, so when you're opting for those Super 130's and higher (or just a cotton or linen fabric) you are likely to get a messy sleeve anyway.

I'm guessing again here, but what you need is a combination of additional width in the rear armhole area of the coat plus a fuller and flatter sleeve crown and more width at the elbow line.
The fabric should be on the softer and heavier side, so the part of the under sleeve can be gathered and shrunk. This will make a fuller rear sleeve and a wider range of movement.

That said I think you are just chasing something that is seen as an ideal, based on the hype created by members of several fora and a certain tailoring firm with a former client named Fred Astaire.

When you compare Astaire's coats to those of Gene Kelly you will note that Mr. Kelly was able to perform very similar moves without wearing "drape".



You can see that his coat, when not buttoned, moves quite a bit. Despite the "drape"!


"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#64 greger

greger

    Master

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,156 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Washington, USA

Posted 09 September 2010 - 06:50 AM

There can be many problems with the garment that effect movement. The goods may not be where they should be. Years ago I pinned the shoulders on a shirt many different ways and found that adjusting the shoulder seam even a little sometimes made a big difference in arm movement and just plain comfort. If I had the shoulder seam in the worst place with a sleeve in the scye then it wouldn't even matter how well I put in the sleeve. Books, diagrams, directions sometimes hint in the right directions but they are by no means absolute because of so many many different reasons. Fit could be off somewhere else, and at that several places. People use different muscles, so that can be a good reason to move a seam. Bone structures are different. The best a pattern can do is average, and what human body is that? If you have a lousy pattern to begin with.... If you want a fitted garment then inlays and pins and working at the fit will get you there. If the body of the garment is the problem then why do you have the sleeves in and the collar on? First things first. Fitting directions can be a big help, unless were looking at the wrong ones, and there are problems that have never been wrtten about (these are probably in the hundreds or more). On top of that who has the best solution for a problem? Just adding the collar or/and sleeve might mess up all the hard work, or maybe the collar or sleeves are not the right shape. Sorting out the problem can be a problem itself. Pins and inlays and expirmenting, then adjusting the pattern so you don't have to do all that work again.

#65 Terri

Terri

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,026 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ontario Canada

Posted 09 September 2010 - 02:39 PM

I have a brief blog post showing a grown-on gusset. I don't use a particular draft per se, I once did all the pattern manipulations to figure it out,so, after understanding the mechanics of it, I draft a regular sleeve pattern and I change it basically freehand/by eye. If it works correctly, when the arm is down, it is barely noticeable. You still may have to tweak it a bit, but it does work. Again this shape is more appropriate to lifting one's arms but it does allow for some more extended forward and up movement.

The thread containing a draft that is similar to what I do ishere

#66 YogilaT

YogilaT

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 11 posts

Posted 23 April 2011 - 03:16 PM

Can someone explain how to measure the 'crown height' and 'sleeve cap'? I'm trying to picture what some of the posters are saying, and a definition (with accompanying diagrams / patterns) would be helpful. Thanks!

#67 Sator

Sator

    Administrator

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,998 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 23 April 2011 - 06:58 PM

this forum is for clients of tailors seeking advice, not for in depth technical discussion. All technical discussion here will be deleted. Please read forum rules re discussions on coatmaking in the Apprentices Forum




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users