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Havelock Overcoat


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#1 0815newbie

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 08:37 AM

Hello everyone!

Since I am not able to start a new topic in the professional part of this forum I am going to publish my question here.

Anyways, can someone provide a pattern for this type of overcoat as well as some detailed information (pictures) on the features of this special garment?
Posted Image

Thank you very much.

Regards

newbie

Edited by 0815newbie, 27 January 2011 - 08:41 AM.


#2 Sator

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 09:53 AM

Hi there, are you a tailor? :hi: If so, please apply for Professional status.

No coatmaking topics are permitted in this section of the forum. (Posts here that are purely technical coatmaking topics may be locked or deleted.)

#3 0815newbie

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 10:41 AM

Hi Sator,

no, I am not a tailor myself.

I just want to acquire an overcoat for formal attire which is diffrent to the common chesterfield, which is recommended by most authors/ tailors nowadays.

Well, it seems that I have got to go for a bespoke or mtm overcoat since there are no rtw alternatives (at least i know none). Therefore I need as much information as I can get about this type of garment in order to give my tailor a hint what he is supposed to do for me.
I just thought it would speed things up a bit if i can provide a pattern or something, because it seems that none of the available tailors have done something like this for decades.

So my question is not purely techniqual, it is more about the look of overcoats like the Havelock or Inverness and so on. Nevertheless a pattern would help a lot, but I would be satisfied with pictures either.

Hope I did not mess things up too much.

Edited by 0815newbie, 27 January 2011 - 10:44 AM.


#4 Sator

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 10:49 AM

Right then. I've moved this topic to this forum. When I have time I might scan some drafts for you to take to your tailor.

BTW where are you based? Is your tailor English, Italian, German, American???

I ask because it is not usually called a Havelock in English. When that term is used, it is used synonymously with the term "Inverness coat/cloak". An English tailor might have understood you better if you had used the term "Inverness". This is still worn as Highland wear.

In German some authors have given the English term "Havelock" a meaning it doesn't have in English to indicate a sleeved Inverness.

#5 0815newbie

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 11:29 AM

I am a citizen of the federal republic of germany ;)

Futhermore you are totally right! There seems to be a lot of confusion about the terms Inverness, Havelock and (i do not know how to spell it) Macfarlan.

I would appreciate it if you were able to clear up that confusion.

Edited by 0815newbie, 27 January 2011 - 11:32 AM.


#6 Sator

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 06:37 PM

The style is usually referred to as an Inverness cloak or coat. Other terms for it exist but are extremely rarely used in English, but somehow have managed to get out of the UK and survive, or take on meanings not found in English.

I will try to pull out a Rundschau draft for an Inverness with drafting instructions in German.

#7 0815newbie

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 05:45 AM

Btw Sator:

http://img161.images...scoatok6le.jpg/

How would you call this? It seems like the upper part is constructed quiet different. I do not know how these "wings" are called maybe it would be a "Pelerine" in german.

#8 Sator

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 09:04 AM

In English that would probably be called an Inverness cloak with step lapels.

In German that is called a Frackmantel mit Pelerine (full dress overcoat with cape). That's what Rundschau calls it. It is just an ordinary overcoat (Chesterfield or Raglan) with a cape added. It's more of a Continental style.

The British fashion plates and tailoring texts show either a full dress cloak or an Inverness. The Inverness is usually (but not always) sleeveless.

#9 Sator

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 09:31 AM

BTW I have looked up a few books but I really don't know exactly what you want.

If all you want is a Frackmantel with a cape, that should be easy. All you need to do is ask your tailor to make you a Chesterfield overcoat (Paletot in German) or a Raglan overcoat and add a cape to it. You should have the lapels faced with silk too. Your tailor shouldn't need a pattern for this, although I can provide one if needed.

If you want an Inverness cloak for evening dress in the British style - without sleeves - then I will need to scan and post some patterns for your tailor. The reason is that the body of the coat is cut differently, with a lot more ease, to a standard Chesterfield or Raglan type of overcoat.

#10 greger

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 12:24 PM

The cape or several capes can be buttoned on. The buttons and buttonholes are under the collar out of sight. The buttonholes are on the cape. It makes it easy for the cleaners and you can easily wear the coat without the cape when you would like no cape. If you already have a coat and extra cloth, then you can add the cape for it.

#11 Sator

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 03:42 PM

^ That's another option when you have a standard Chesterfield or Raglan with a cape. However, an Inverness cloak can't have a detachable cape - since it doesn't have sleeves, and the "wings" are partially set in at the back of the armscye.

#12 Terri

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:48 AM

In the information I have, the Inverness does not have sleeves, the front shoulder under the capelet is narrow and the front armhole is cut lower and joins to the back which is kept fairly boxy. The capelet is stitched into the front neckline,just short of the roll line and into the shoulder, then continues into the side back seam of the coat. My cutting diagram shows the capelet only stitched in as far as the waist and the remainder of its length hanging loose (capelet is hip length)
The MacFarlane coat is similar, fly front closure, but has a raglan shaped back and the capelet therefore has a raglan shaping, otherwise very similar. A hip length capelet, notched lapel, 4 buttons on both in my sources.

Obviously your dress coat sleeves are exposed when wearing either.
As Greger mentions you can button a capelet onto an overcoat too.

Edited by Terri, 29 January 2011 - 02:49 AM.


#13 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 06:29 AM

The Inverness was designed for grouse shooting in Scotland, the weather was often cold and windy. the cape construction was designed to be thrown back over the shoulder when shooting.
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#14 0815newbie

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 08:32 AM

Thanks so far, Sator.

I would like to have the "real"/ original Inverness.

Btw. does the garment for which I have published pictures at last have sleeves under that wings?

#15 Sator

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 11:04 AM

I will see what I can find later.

#16 Nishijin

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 09:50 PM

Btw. does the garment for which I have published pictures at last have sleeves under that wings?


The sleeves we can see are pretty thin, so I would think they are from the (under)coat, and not the overcoat.

Plus it looks to me as being an "opera" coat (a black inverness with silk and "dressy" finish), which is usually loose and sleeveless so as not to crease the garments under it.
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#17 Sator

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 11:06 AM

I have finally managed to find something from the 1936 Schneidermeister book Die Zuschneidekunst:

Posted Image

Posted Image

The cutting system is rather too dated to be used directly. I would suggest that your tailor use a more modern Rundschau pattern for an Ulster overcoat and add the above modifications to it.

The author calls it a Havelock, and describes the wing as being a cape that is set into the sideseam. This is what is usually called an Inverness cloak in English. As Mansie says it was originally a shooting garment worn by the Scottish. The reason a seemingly casual sporting garment was worn for evening dress is because, as already mentioned, it is a very loose garment that avoids disturbing the dress clothes underneath.

#18 greger

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 11:52 AM

Here are a couple pictures from a movie.
Kind Hearts and Coronets: Decadent Dennis PricePosted Image


Posted Image
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