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Can a well-fitted fused/half-canvassed jacket look better than a fully-canvassed one?


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#19 fxh

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 05:04 PM

, at the end of the day you get what you pay for.


That is simply not true.

I've seen $600 fused suits + $150 or so alterations, look far far superior to $3,000 bespoke or $5,000 name OTR.

Fit- first - + silhouette is (almost) everything.

You often have to pay well for quality - but the reverse is demonstrably not true - money does not buy quality

#20 jukes

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 05:45 PM

That is simply not true.

I've seen $600 fused suits + $150 or so alterations, look far far superior to $3,000 bespoke or $5,000 name OTR.

Fit- first - + silhouette is (almost) everything.

You often have to pay well for quality - but the reverse is demonstrably not true - money does not buy quality


If you are going for fit and silhouette, this can be achieved with lower quality materials, "machine made" with a well cut garment. Quality will be found in the materials used, expertise and man hours, both on the inside and outside of a well made garment, hence the price will be higher = you get what you pay for.

Edited by jukes, 07 June 2010 - 05:48 PM.


#21 greger

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 05:56 AM

That is simply not true.

I've seen $600 fused suits + $150 or so alterations, look far far superior to $3,000 bespoke or $5,000 name OTR.

Fit- first - + silhouette is (almost) everything.

You often have to pay well for quality - but the reverse is demonstrably not true - money does not buy quality



Well, yes and no, and sometimes, really depends. When fuse became common it hid the bad fit of a lot of ill fitting garments because it added that kind of structure. These garments looked like they fit and the silhouette would, of course, look good, but they were rather uncomfortable, which is probably one of the big reasons why the hippie generation walked away from suits. Nowadays deep armholes don't help, either. There are some alterations tailors who do a very good job in most cases for mtm and rtw.

With a real tailor you have a baste up for a fitting of the body of the coat and some style details that the customer can personalize is part of the price. Hopefully with these people you are dealing with far more education of fittings that has been pasted down throught out the ages. The details of fitting should, though not always, far out do an alterations tailor. Some aterations tailors should be equally as good, but they are dealing with coat that is already made up so some changes that would make a better coat are off limits. A bespoke tailor can, because of the first fitting, change the canvass shape, place the darts in better locations and even use the iron more effectively, to name a few, that an aterations tailor can't do. And then there are sometimes two or more fittings for bespoke. For real bespoke there should be two fittings or more. With the lower price of some rtw coats and not bad fit to begin with, for some customers, some rtw is well worth the price.

#22 EllaQ

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 05:44 PM

Fused or fully canvassed does not influence the fit of a coat. If the fit is off it doesn't really matter how the coat was made.

I find that coats with a fused front run a bit warmer, since the glue layer is blocking the moist transfer. So if you are planning on a 16oz cloth to be made up I would recommend canvassed.

If money is an issue, you might pick a tailor who offers both and start with the lower price option. If it goes well, get the fully canvassed garment. If it doesn't, you haven't wasted precious money.

But another question: Isn't there any local talent near you?



That is simply not true.

I've seen $600 fused suits + $150 or so alterations, look far far superior to $3,000 bespoke or $5,000 name OTR.

Fit- first - + silhouette is (almost) everything.

You often have to pay well for quality - but the reverse is demonstrably not true - money does not buy quality



If you are going for fit and silhouette, this can be achieved with lower quality materials, "machine made" with a well cut garment. Quality will be found in the materials used, expertise and man hours, both on the inside and outside of a well made garment, hence the price will be higher = you get what you pay for.


I love this topic!!! to fuse or not to fuse that is the question, whether it is nobler...... Fusing has such a bad name and I think it is wholly unwarranted. The problem generally lies with the operator/tailor/sewer. I learned, as I suppose most of us did, to padstitch myself into a stupor as that was the"proper way" to do things. ( I trained in Germany and we're big on the proper way there) Later on when I was running the atelier where I worked I was invited to attend a fashion show and information night given by Freudenberg who is one of the major producers of interfacings in Europe.
During the discussion period their reps said one of the pet peeves the company had to deal with was the claim of the failing interfacing bond and that it always came down to the fact that the fusibles were incorrectly applied. I mean the company employs whacks of chemists and technicians who spend their lives optimizing adhesive formulations,fabric weaves, fibre combos and dot patterns for all kinds of materials that work beautifully and are quite permanent if correctly applied but this does require a specific heat/pressure/time/moisture combination for each interfacing which it seemed most people aren't willing to either grasp or follow. And each interfacing is geared to a specific fibre or fibre group. I was literally gobsmacked at the extent of their product line and amazed at the difference from what fusibles used to be like when the first pellons hit the market decades ago.
As to whether or not a fully canvassed jacket is better than one that is properly fused is for me a difficult question. I've seen plenty of bad padstitching in my time as well as lots of bubbling from bad fusing. I think the most important thing is that the garment be well and properly cut first and foremost. What methods are used to shape,form and stabilize the garment on the inside are then immaterial so long as it is done correctly for the material used. (I'm probably offending the purists out there so i apologize for that) I would frankly rather spend an extra hour or two on a perfect pattern then padstiching the chestpiece or building my shoulder pads from scratch.
Now here's the other thing about all this. if a well constructed fully canvassed jacket will indeed last almost forever and thus justify the greater expense and labour will the buyer still be wearing it in 10 or 15 years considering that not only do fashions change but the wearer's body inevitably will as well? And yes i am aware that you can allow for bigger inlays on some of the seams but these are generally the CB, back flank seam and back arm none of which help that much when it seems the majority of people put on weight at the front causing those (un)attractive diagonal pulls towards the buttons.
For those that are interested Freudenbergs recommendations for a successful fuse if using an iron were to put as much pressure on it as possible (really lean on it), hold the iron steady in each place for at least 15 seconds before moving it, lift and place - don't slide the iron and most importantly let the piece cool before moving it off the board to allow the adhesive bond to stabilize. The temperature varied according to fabric and interfacing.
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#23 jukes

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 09:05 PM

It would also be interesting to see data that shows how fusing reacts to the chemicals in the dry cleaning process. The early fusibles would tend to come away after being dry cleaned a few times.

#24 Sator

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 10:55 PM

The other thing that is often blamed for the poor reputation of fusing is the way dry cleaners handle coats during their cleaning process. Unfortunately, bad dry cleaners seem to be the norm these days. Older tailors say that in the old days there were many more reputable cleaners around, but these have all but disappeared.

#25 Svenn

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 07:34 AM

Thanks for the continued replies, I've decided just to invest in a full-canvassing bespoke tailor, AND try out a reputable fusing one in Bkk to compare (well, and because I need more than one suit for my job, lol). The former will be made first and hopefully succesfully, so I can show it to the fusing tailor to copy.

Sator I have been reading your Guide thoroughly and was wondering if you have any more of those pics of immaculatly-cut suits (I never thought a sleeve could be made this perfectly: http://i201.photobuc...sartdipreta.jpg
...I was hoping to have a small folder of these to show to my tailor. Huntsman put up more pics on their site recently, though mannequin pics are fairly useless, especially when there's no legs...

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#26 Svenn

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 08:27 AM

^actuallly I've just been poking around the Les Incroyables forum and found the one below to be almost exactly what I'm looking for. What's with those weird lines drawn onto the lapels, etc though, has it been edited or something? How does the jacket get that robust, swelling appearance to it?? Is it just cut very close to the body with heavy canvassing and cloth? perhaps some chest padding?

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#27 EllaQ

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 08:28 AM

The other thing that is often blamed for the poor reputation of fusing is the way dry cleaners handle coats during their cleaning process. Unfortunately, bad dry cleaners seem to be the norm these days. Older tailors say that in the old days there were many more reputable cleaners around, but these have all but disappeared.


That is so true!!!! there are more bad cleaners than good ones. I do mostly theatrical costuming now, design and rentals and can tell you one lovely horror story.

Among the other shows we rent out is one called Forever Plaid which calls for the four actors in it to have four matching cream coloured dinner jackets and four matching tartan/plaid dinner jackets. Time and money were short when we were building these so we ordered the cream ones from the States with the exception of one - the actor who needed a size 54 portly short (really short) - we built his and all the plaid ones. A year later we rented them out to a theatre group for a fundraiser they were putting on - they had engaged the same actors. Mr. Shortly-portly had actually put on a little more weight but it was a rental and not my problem. I requested that they, as part of the agreement, take them after the run of the show to the cleaners I always use as they are #1 totally reliable, #2 do a fabulous job and #3 give me a 30% discount.

The group's wardrobe mistress, a crotchety old witch who thought she knew better and couldn't be bothered following a simple request took them to some cheap cleaner in their area. When I got them back he had kindly pressed a nice, sharp, knife crease on the roll of the collar and lapel - I mean really, really pressed. I couldn't get rid of it for love or money AND he had managed to set in a vile brown stain on the collar of Mr. Shortly-Portly's cream dinner jacket - really really brown. I later found out the actor had used henna on his hair the week before the shows and as it is a rather strenuous show sweated like a dockworker.. My cleaner would have never, ever, even started to treat something like that without contacting me first to try to ascertain what it was. These people just ran it through the machine and then pressed it to further set the stain. I WAS LIVID!!!

I took them to my guy who re-cleaned all the jackets and repressed them properly (although the roll line will truly never be as nice as it once was) and he put the cream dinner jacket through 3 different processes and treatments to soften the brown blotches to a pale yellow which is about as good as it will ever get. I was thankful he managed that much as otherwise the jacket was a write-off. He treats his job like it's an art and I would rather pay him more and not have to worry about what will happen to things.
So the moral of the story is if you're going to put time and effort and money into a garment, do your damnedest to find a reputable established cleaner who can treat it like the investment it is.
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#28 ladhrann

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 01:30 AM

Just in relation to the question of fusible vs. canvassed, I was wondering if a tailoring member of the forum could help me out. I was speaking to a tailor there and asking him about the length of cloth he needs, opening hours etc. I then asked him if he used a canvass or fusible. Then he told me that he uses a haircloth and a fusible? Now this confused me a lot, can anyone explain this? He's originally from Germany so I'm wondering if something is being lost in translation. Why would you use a haircloth and a fusible? I'm trying to figure out what construction he uses.

#29 jukes

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 07:06 AM

Just in relation to the question of fusible vs. canvassed, I was wondering if a tailoring member of the forum could help me out. I was speaking to a tailor there and asking him about the length of cloth he needs, opening hours etc. I then asked him if he used a canvass or fusible. Then he told me that he uses a haircloth and a fusible? Now this confused me a lot, can anyone explain this? He's originally from Germany so I'm wondering if something is being lost in translation. Why would you use a haircloth and a fusible? I'm trying to figure out what construction he uses.


They fuse the fronts (foreparts) and put canvas in the chest.

#30 dkst

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 07:40 AM

I've seen a fully canvassed coat with the forepart also entirely fused. The canvas was very light, acting almost just as a carrier for the chest layers.

I've tried this myself and was less than pleased with the result. It's highly dependent on the type of fusing you use. Mine was just a bit too crisp feeling, despite being a lightweight woven fusing. I might try it again with some 8oz mohair I have and a different type of fusing.
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#31 Sator

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 08:57 AM

I know one tailor in town who uses fusible instead of body canvas and then installs a chest piece (but with greatly curtailed shaping/working up).

Jeffery Diduch has written a good summary of industry construction methods on his blog:

http://tuttofattoama...nvas-fused.html

Posted Image

An updated version:

http://www.styleforu...suits-explained

He also mentions a technique called "skin fusing".

#32 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:33 PM

It would also be interesting to see data that shows how fusing reacts to the chemicals in the dry cleaning process. The early fusibles would tend to come away after being dry cleaned a few times.


This is tested by German Master tailor shops in Rundschau magazines and found durable.
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#33 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:34 PM

The other thing that is often blamed for the poor reputation of fusing is the way dry cleaners handle coats during their cleaning process. Unfortunately, bad dry cleaners seem to be the norm these days. Older tailors say that in the old days there were many more reputable cleaners around, but these have all but disappeared.


Correct. Still, fusing should be durable.
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#34 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:44 PM

Just in relation to the question of fusible vs. canvassed, I was wondering if a tailoring member of the forum could help me out. I was speaking to a tailor there and asking him about the length of cloth he needs, opening hours etc. I then asked him if he used a canvass or fusible. Then he told me that he uses a haircloth and a fusible? Now this confused me a lot, can anyone explain this? He's originally from Germany so I'm wondering if something is being lost in translation. Why would you use a haircloth and a fusible? I'm trying to figure out what construction he uses.


This is the way German bespoke work now. The don't make a big deal out of it. Using slight fuse and continue traditional. For light fabric it is a good way which brings excellent results you cannot reach else. The point is what fusing he is using. Today German engineering has developed fuse so thin and light under 30g/m2 like a spider web and is not available in the USA. The industry is using it as well.
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#35 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:48 PM

I've seen a fully canvassed coat with the forepart also entirely fused. The canvas was very light, acting almost just as a carrier for the chest layers.

I've tried this myself and was less than pleased with the result. It's highly dependent on the type of fusing you use. Mine was just a bit too crisp feeling, despite being a lightweight woven fusing. I might try it again with some 8oz mohair I have and a different type of fusing.


Very correct.
www.berlinbespokesuits.com

#36 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:56 PM

I know one tailor in town who uses fusible instead of body canvas and then installs a chest piece (but with greatly curtailed shaping/working up).

Jeffery Diduch has written a good summary of industry construction methods on his blog:

http://tuttofattoama...nvas-fused.html

Posted Image

An updated version:

http://www.styleforu...suits-explained

He also mentions a technique called "skin fusing".


This is the old cheap way from the 70thies. Nobody works like this anymore unless the industrie. Maybe if you have ultra light fabric then I could understand it. Ott from Schlins made his suits like that and the Rundschau are full of it. Those suits have not much plastic they are rather flat. Check out the Ott video "tailor made" and you can see the process. I didn't like the process even the result was looking excellent.
www.berlinbespokesuits.com




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