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Interesting trouser draft


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#1 zsmith95

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 12:38 AM

I found this draft on this website: https://sites.google...perial-measures (which is fairly interesting in itself), and I thought it was kinda neat how it seems to use the same method for finding the seat seam angle as Rundschau. Sadly, the instructions are somewhat lacking but I think they could be figured out. The back leg center line being angled at the top seemed odd to me. I was wondering what any of you professionals thought of this.Trouser%20Prportional%20Draft.jpg



#2 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 11:54 AM

The back center line is angled in order to straighten the back trouser, so the knee point of the back trouser does not become so hollow. The iron work is easier then with light fabric.


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#3 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:33 AM

Tailoring is nothing for porecitos, right?


Edited by Der Zuschneider, 10 October 2017 - 03:39 PM.

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#4 Learner

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 02:48 PM

What does that mean?

 

The draft itself is a bit of a mutt.  It took me a while to figure out the order of operations, but I think I've got it if anybody's interested.  It's complicated by the fact that some of the distances on the diagram don't actually match the stated measures.

 

In most trouser drafts, the "back centre-line" isn't explicitly rendered. 

 

The rear crease will pretty much always go off grain, because the point of the back fork will almost always be further from the notional centre-line than the equivalent point on the sideseam.  This will happen regardless of how hollow the knee is or how much or little manipulation is performed with the iron. 

 

In this particular draft, the "centre-line (back leg)" is used to find the location of the back fork point (A).  The run of the seat seam is established, and continued above the waistline line by the specified amount.  The back waistline is drawn in, and a point is established three eights out from the centre back waist.  A line is drawn from centre knee to this point, and where it intersects the "seat line" (note that most drafts call this line the crotch line {schrittlinie}) is point C.  Point A is the same distance from point C as point B, and presumably (although it isn't explicitly indicated) lies on a line from point C that is perpendicular to the "centre-line (back leg)" line.

 

Note that half-inch sideseams are specified, so if the trousers are pressed off with the front crease on the centre line, the rear crease will be half an inch outside the centre line, and the sideseam will be a quarter of an inch in front of the inseam.


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#5 Terri

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:28 PM

Do people actually make accordion shaped seams when cutting cuffed trousers? Why would you do that?
Much easier process is to adjust the trouser so the leg tapering comes to a conclusion just above the cuff height, and then square down to the hem line and through the remainder of the cuff allowance.
Making changes slightly shorter or longer involves no fiddling with shaped seaming.
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#6 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:58 PM

I'm glad you asked that.  It always seemed like a home-sewing madness to me. 


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#7 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 03:20 AM

I wonder the provenance of this particular draft
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#8 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 07:35 AM

Hello everyone on this topic. 

 

I don't access the forum very much, these days but, I have just logged on and found this trouser topic. It is good to see some discussion is still going on. In answer to Jason's  question. It is someone from the UK has drafted this. It is drafted in Inches also, they mention PTU's.   If it was American (who also work in Feet and inches and not metric) they would have used the term Cuffs for the bottom of the trousers.

 

As to the draft. It seems to be designed for very tight fitting in the fork region, (more like a pair of jeans in that area.)

 

It is nice to see that 'Learner' has given it a good going over. I think Point C is located first and then the angle is drawn from the knee through C up to the waist at top of seat angle line.

If you look where they have located the normal centre line (i.e. 1/3 of the seat from the side-seam,) you will notice the the centre line has been moved back 1/2 inch and  C has been moved forward.

 

Moving the centre line back 1/2 inch would give a more open leg also.

 

Point X would normally be 1/6 of the seat from the centre line so, it is also 1/2 further back than normal. This is the reason I think it could be based on a pair of jeans and, then adapted  for pleated trousers.

 

I am not making any criticism of the draft, just an observation.


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#9 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 08:07 AM

Do people actually make accordion shaped seams when cutting cuffed trousers? Why would you do that?
Much easier process is to adjust the trouser so the leg tapering comes to a conclusion just above the cuff height, and then square down to the hem line and through the remainder of the cuff allowance.
Making changes slightly shorter or longer involves no fiddling with shaped seaming.

To make an angled cuff is not looking nice and hard to make.


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#10 Learner

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 04:35 PM

 

It is nice to see that 'Learner' has given it a good going over. I think Point C is located first and then the angle is drawn from the knee through C up to the waist at top of seat angle line.

 

 

Mansie,

 

You could be right, but if that's the case, there's nothing on the diagram to show how point C is located.  I think the full sequence goes like this (it's a bit long-winded; skip straight down to the last step to see how I think C is located):

 

1) Begin with "seat" line.  From O, measure up one third scale and make a mark, then come back half an inch to find Z.  Square both ways for centre line.  

 

2) From Z, knee is half leg minus 3 inches, bottom is leg plus three eighths.  Square across at each and mark one quarter of knee and bottom width each side of centre line.

 

3) From Z, waist line is rise minus width of waistband (in this diagram, about one inch).

 

4) From the mark made in step 1, measure up seat line one sixth scale, square across to waist line to find centre front waist.

 

5) Square back one quarter waist plus width of pleat plus one quarter inch seam, spring out three sixteenths to find top of sideseam.

 

6) Mark a point one sixth scale from seat line on fly line.  Measure down one quarter seat plus half an inch (one inch for two pleats, nothing for plain tops) and mark.  Draw sideseam from top through this point and knee point to bottom. 

 

7) Point Y is found where the sideseam crosses the seat line.  Make X the same distance from Z on the seat line.  Draw inseam from X through knee point to bottom. 

 

8) Draw in crotch curve from point X to the point that was marked in step 6, passing one inch from the intersection of seat line and fly line.

 

Undersides:

 

9)  Draw a line from point O to the top of the sideseam.  Mark a point half an inch along this line and connect to the point that was marked in step .  For a flat seat, make the point about one inch from O; for a prominent seat, connect directly from O.

 

(This following part is a bit of guesswork.  As zsmith95 noticed, in the Müller system, a similar method is used to set the seat angle, but the point which is connected to is determined by calculating the seat breadth ("Hinterhosenhüftbreite") and sits somewhat further from the fly line than in this draft)

 

10) Place the long arm of the square on this line, moving back to find the point where the short arm intersects with the crotch curve.  Draw along the short arm and extend this line one and three quarter inches above the waist line for centre back seam (two and a quarter inches for a prominent seat, one and a quarter inches for a flat seat).

 

11) From the intersection point of the connecting line drawn in step 9 and the centre back seam, strike an arc one quarter seat plus four seams plus three quarter inches ease to find point B on the seat line (This is really just a guess.  There are various ways that the diagram could be interpreted here.  It might be the case that one simply measures back along the connecting line to find another unnamed point through which the sideseam is drawn, finding point B on the seat line in the same manner as point Y is found above.  Alternatively, point B might be the termination point of this line, and fall above or below the seat line for a flat or prominent seat respectively.  It's also unclear whether "4 seams" means two quarter inch seams and two half inch seams, which I suspect it does, because the seat would otherwise be very close fitting for pleated trousers with 19 inch knees.  Because the measured dimensions on the diagram don't all match the stated measurements, it's hard to know exactly what was intended.  It's entirely possible that there were originally also some written instructions to clarify these points).

 

12) From the top of the centre back seam located in step 10, draw a line to just above the top of the topside sideseam.  Extend this line to be one quarter waist plus three quarters of an inch for one dart plus three seams plus half an inch for make up (again, it's not clear what's intended here. The "half inch for make up" could be an addition to allow for dimensional changes during the making up process like the three eighths that's  added to the leg length, but it's not something that's typically seen on trouser drafts, and seems like an excessive amount.  On the other hand, it could be the two quarter inches that are added to make the half inch sideseams as specified, but this calls into question the meaning of "4 seams" as discussed in the previous paragraph.  If the dimensions of the diagram were correct, all this could be resolved by measuring on the diagram, but they are not).

 

13) Measure back four and a half inches for three quarter inch back dart, three and a half inches long.  Shape back waistline as diagram.

 

14)  Mark out three quarters of an inch each side at knee and bottom.  Draw sideseam through point B and knee mark to bottom mark.

 

15)  Mark a point three eighths of an inch out from centre back waist and connect it to the intersection of centre and knee lines for back leg centre line.  Point C is found where this line crosses seat line.  Measure from C to point B and, with the square on the back leg centre line, apply this measurement from C to find point A.  Draw inseam from A through knee mark to bottom mark.

 

What are your thoughts on incorporating a half inch sideseam into the draft? I think that there must be some idea behind it beyond just increasing the size of the seam allowance, but I don't know what it might be.


Edited by Learner, 12 October 2017 - 12:50 PM.

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#11 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 05:22 AM

Hello Learner

 

I like the way you have analysed The diagram. You have picked  out every feature in the diagram  and made sound judgement. The only thing I can not see, is where it mentions 1/2 inch seams. I did notice there is only 1 seam on the front waist and 3 seams on the back waist. I think the extra 1/2 inch is for making up ,as you mentioned.

 

Now, having looked over the draft again, to check your observations. I have come to the conclusion that the diagram is only intended to point out the alterations needed for  changes in an existing pattern for Flat seat, Prominent seat and changes for pleats. This may account for the lack of information in the draft. i.e. there is no mention how point A is found.

 

  Point C is found 1/2 inch from the original centre line position, when this point is moved back to give a more open leg on the diagram. Points X Y Z are the seat divisions from point 0 These locate the original positions for centre line,fly line and front fork. All the other instructions are based on changes from these.

 

It would be nice to find out where the draft came from. It takes me back to a time when I had discussions like this nearly every day with colleagues at work.


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#12 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 12:07 AM

A - C = B - C


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#13 Learner

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 08:21 PM

Indeed.  Also, the clue that it has to work the way that I described rather than by setting C at a fixed location is the indication that the top of the "centre line (back leg)" is located three eighths of an inch from the centre back waist.  If the "centre line (back leg)" was drafted from the centre knee through C and up to the back waist line, then this distance would vary depending on the seat angle (besides which, there'd be no compelling reason for including the dimension on the diagram, or indeed, for extending the line further than C).

 

The half inch sideseams are specified in the description, at top left.

 

All in all, I don't think that this draft actually works.  You can see by looking at it that it produces a reasonable looking pattern for a pair of proportional pleated trousers, but if you modify it according to the instructions for a pair of plain top trousers for a prominent seat, the seat gets extremely tight.  I think that you need to apply the seat breadth on a line that's about one sixth scale above the line that sets the seat angle (like Müller does), rather than applying it on the same line.



#14 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 10:32 AM

Every trouser draft has a pleat included in order to get a good back trouser. A plain top trouser is mostly an incest trouser and looks like shit. So you are wrong! For a pair of jeans is different!

 

If a person has a belly, then the pleat will be used up for the belly first, then you can have a plain top trouser!


Edited by Der Zuschneider, 15 October 2017 - 10:37 AM.

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#15 Learner

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 08:44 PM

I'm not really sure what you're saying.

 

zsmith asked for information about the trouser draft, particularly the "centre line (back leg)".  I've given an explanation for why it is like it is, and also explained why alternative interpretations of the diagram aren't valid.

 

The diagram itself offers information about how the draft can be modified for changes in style and figuration, and I've worked through those changes and satisfied myself that if you combine two of the stated modifications - plain tops and prominent seat - then the method employed doesn't work.

 

 

Every trouser draft has a pleat included in order to get a good back trouser. A plain top trouser is mostly an incest trouser and looks like shit. So you are wrong!

 

 

I'm really not sure what you're saying here.  The instructions for modifying this draft to produce a plain top pattern are on the diagram.  What is it that I'm wrong about?

 

If you want to discuss the differences between plain tops and pleats, then I'd suggest that you are wrong!  Pleated trousers are comparatively easy to cut and make.  A close (not tight) fitting plain top pattern requires more skill and knowledge to cut and make up nicely, but it's certainly not an "incest" trouser, whatever that means.  That debate isn't really relevant to the topic at hand, which is analysis of this particular draft.


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#16 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 08:08 AM

Just to keep the subject open.  Learner, the information at the top left l.e. the trouser measurements. It is not 1/2 inch seams. it looks like the outside leg seam measurement has been cut off except for the 1/2 inch which is part of the side seam measure.

 

Regarding your post (13) I agree with you on measuring the seat (or hip ) on the position at 1/6 up from the fork line. That is where you would measure your seat when taking the measurements.


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#17 Learner

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 10:04 AM

Just to keep the subject open.  Learner, the information at the top left l.e. the trouser measurements. It is not 1/2 inch seams. it looks like the outside leg seam measurement has been cut off except for the 1/2 inch which is part of the side seam measure.

 

Regarding your post (13) I agree with you on measuring the seat (or hip ) on the position at 1/6 up from the fork line. That is where you would measure your seat when taking the measurements.

Ah, yes,   I think you're right!  So three eighths seams.  I'll have to have another play with it.  


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