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Lapel Roll


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#1 beaubrummel

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 04:27 AM

I always read how hand padding the lapel is the reason why you would get a nice lapel roll, but how true is that really? If you were to machine pad a lapel, and say press the roll, since it's horsehair and will conform, wouldn't you be able to create that same roll?

 

Just curious


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#2 SINNED

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 07:18 AM

Hand pad stitch lapels are the best. There are industrial padding machines that use rollers to creat the fullness on the canvas and I suppose you could create a similar effect with a post felling machine but it would be difficult to contol the fullness in between the rows of stitching. By hand stitching, the canvas can be rolled over your finger on every stitch using your thumb to gently push in fullness so that the lapel is almost like a tube when finished, then pressed flat and all of the shrunken fullness in the canvas will maintain a permanent roll on the lapel for life.
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#3 Schneidergott

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 07:22 AM

Theoretically, this is a coat making question, but I let this slide for now.

 

Modern lapel padstitch machines come quite close to a well hand padded lapel, but the quality of the latter depends on the skill of the tailor and how much work he/ she is willing to spend on it.

As a rule, the more and finer the stitches, the more shape you can get into the lapel. In either case, do not press it flat, some tailors press the lapels flat from neckhole to top button.

 

Don't do it like this fellow:

 


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#4 jcsprowls

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 08:21 AM

It depends on the skill of the operator. You can certainly achieve the same degree of dimension as if by hand.

 

There's more to getting that lapel to roll than how you attach the interfacing, though. The facing, the bridle tape, the fulling and the underpressing have their parts in the equation, too.


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#5 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 11:56 AM

The tailor, I know in Germany, who makes those expensive suits, told me, he hasn't used his lapel machine since 10 years now because the quality of padding by hand is a little bit better. As he is in business since about 100 years starting with his father and he won a couple of published Rundschau awards, I believe him!

 

But I think, if someone has such machine already, he should use the padding machine and try to make the best out of it.


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#6 the tailor

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 03:32 AM

Exactly right, there is MUCH more to getting the lapel to roll than just the pad stitching.

I have used both over the years and found the difference marginal to say the least.

However, I am a firm believer that if the client is paying for it then you should put it in. Namely by hand.
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#7 beaubrummel

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:52 AM

Exactly right, there is MUCH more to getting the lapel to roll than just the pad stitching.

I have used both over the years and found the difference marginal to say the least.

However, I am a firm believer that if the client is paying for it then you should put it in. Namely by hand.

 

I agree of course if the client is paying for it, there's no need for a "shortcut" (if it is) but what I'm wondering is if you NEED to pad the lapels bu hand in order to produce that smooth roll. 

 

So many people (customers) in the bespoke/menswear/fashion world are always boasting about such things, hand stitching here and there, lapel rolls, so on and sometimes it just seems like most of the people who talk about these things as 'must haves' or in passing judgement seem to not really know what they're talking about and just going with the crowd (like buying a Tom Ford suit because it's "special", when in fact it's not). Their wants and needs aside, I'm more curious on the actual fundamentals behind it all. 


Edited by beaubrummel, 03 June 2014 - 05:54 AM.


#8 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:38 AM

The differences are really marginal between machine or hand padding if you use the machine very skillful, but still, the result of the handwork will have a nicer result. The bridle has a shortage (even when you use a lapel dart) to bring itself close to the body to prevent gaping. This means the lapel gets some length to the outside, in order to keep that in place you are actually doing a three dimensional hand padding. With machine padding you will loose that third dimension in Z coordinate, as the machine only does X and Y direction.

 

The problem is a psychological one. The owning of a machine is becoming a curse of a good tailor who understand this background because he use the machine to do a kind of incorrect, incomplete work for the gain of time. A real tailor loves is work and strives for artistic work like a spiritualist and scamping for the sake of time is a horror or betrayal of the tailors conscious. So the tailor, who uses the padding machine will mostly have a dirty look at his lapel work and rather closes his eyes and asking himself, why the heck I have bought a padding machine in order to don't like my work?

 

But there are tailors who have a certain love of their work regarding to be needy and little love to their work as they don't work spiritual, those are the ones who have left the street of being really artists. They have been giving in to the sorrows of their live in order to put food on the table, they have become slaves to cheap customers and have no other choice than to do so. If someone bought such a padding machine, he mostly becomes a slave to use it.

 

The tailor, I know in Germany, it took him at least 40 years to despise the existence of this machine in his shop and that is a long fight over the little Z-coordinate, he can grab over his fingers whilst padding or leave it alone by using the machine, but then having a dirty look all the time at his lapel, because a real tailor sees the little difference and that means he loves his work.


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#9 jcsprowls

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 08:40 AM

I disagree with the sentiment that machines corrupt skills. I prefer machines because of consistency. That said: I made coats for many years before ever buying a padstitch machine. Buttonholes were my bain, so a keyhole machine was much higher priority.

 

Coming from both sides of this: I see no appreciable difference between hand-attached or machine-attached interfacings.

 

That said... to beau's original question: "is by hand the ideal?"

 

My response is: "technically/mechanically I see no appreciable difference".

 

In the end, only your customers know what they value. Your "answer" lies in executing a blind A/B test. Your customers will prefer/value one higher than the other. That's the answer that matters.

 

My main point is this: the hand-padding method is not a magic bullet. Pad stitching is a method of attaching a sew-in interfacing. If done properly, it highlights the architectural elements that form the roll. It cannot compensate for a broken foundation.


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#10 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:15 PM

Padstitching is spiritual and means going the extra mile for the love of tailoring.

It is similar of cutting light pocket lining in grain instead of like it comes from the roll.


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#11 jcsprowls

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:43 PM

I don't disagree that the craft is rewarding. But, you have the technical experience to decide how you want to operate.

 

For me, I automate what I don't love so I can spend more time doing the things I do love.


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#12 amateursarto

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:58 PM

I agree with what both JCS and DZ have said, (don't quite understand the spiritual thing).  What's funny is that I bought a vintage Strobel padstitch machine, had it shipped from Germany, received it damaged by Deutsche-Post/United States Postal Service, waited three months while a friend CNC'ed a replacement part, got it up and running, and in the meantime sat down, spent some time practicing my hand stitching and discovered that, for whatever reason, I enjoy working by hand as opposed to using a machine.  My padstitching technique and results are nowhere near what I want them to be, but it's still satisfying.  I will continue to learn to use the Strobel, but it has been really eye opening to realize that for me, at least, working by hand, is more enjoyable.  And even though it takes me about an hour to an hour and a half to practice padstitch one lapel, (as opposed to fifteen minutes or so on the Strobel), I just prefer doing it manually.  I really am amazed at professionals who can padstitch an entire lapel in fifteen minutes or so, while achieving a beautiful roll.  Just my experience and thoughts.


Edited by amateursarto, 04 June 2014 - 11:01 PM.

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#13 beaubrummel

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 01:27 AM

I understand the spiritual part, I find when I use the machine for anything it's work, and its more technical. I am more concerned with making sure things are measured properly and so on. Not that I ignore than when I'm hand stitching, but when I'm doing things by hand, I'm putting a part of myself in my work and I take more care in what I'm doing, not just in technique but everything. 


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#14 greger

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 10:50 AM

As DZ says there is X, Y and Z, but is there more than Z? For example curved rows and shorts in between. With a machine you can parallel or fan, but good luck with curved rows. In collar to lapels can be curved pad stitches in such a way that creates a rowed collar that blends into the lapel (these I have not seen for 30 to 50 years).

 

There are different grades of coats, after all, not everybody can pay for a top dollar coat so quality gets left out as the price goes down. Today so many tailors make all the coats with the same quality, but that is not so in the past, even SR tailors had different grades. Lounges and reefers at one time were cheap, unfitted and not up to high standards. Customers changed all of that over time with the blazer being last, well, maybe sports coats are still last. Whatever the garment the price per hour should be the same, some garments just take more hours, and exceptions would be white and black tie where the price per hour would be more. Todays world so many tailors have never been taught how to make cheaper coats.



#15 Claire Shaeffer

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 02:44 AM

The pad stitching machines I have seen make a stitch like a blind hem or tailor's hem stitch. Like a hemming machine they require skill to operate properly.  

Hand padstitching is softer than machine padstitching because there is less thread. I'm old fashioned and like the handstitched padstitching better.  


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#16 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:10 AM

I can understand what Zuschneider is saying about spirituality, but I find it hard to see the relevance in an objective analysis of execution. It's a simple question of mechanical operation: Can a machine behave mechanically like a hand, which I also regard as a machine and not because I just watched Terminator 2 yesterday, to do what has been traditionally done by hand tailoring? I think there's a clear resentment towards machines because they compete against hands. To exaggerate the mechanical question, what if the pad stitching machine was a robotic arm doing the same movements as a person? I think there would still be resentment and a feeling of it being inferior, because it's a threat to those of tradition. 


Edited by Che Pasticcio, 10 June 2014 - 02:13 AM.

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#17 greger

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:54 AM

A machine does not think.


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#18 posaune

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:14 PM

 I suppose some tailors, too.

:Big Grin:

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