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american gents jeans patterns-anybody out there?


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#1 ACECAPS

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 06:32 AM

dear colleagues,
i´m looking for an all-american jean slack pattern,sz.s 34W and 36W.
does anybody out there know of such a construction pattern?
i know the geerman rundschau patteern,which is satisfying BUT
i would like the REAL thing....
any comments truely appreciated
thanky,
acecaps of germany
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#2 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 09:00 AM

You could take off a pattern from a regular jeans and derivate the Rundschau formulas. Makes a little work to do it.
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#3 ACECAPS

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 08:40 AM

You could take off a pattern from a regular jeans and derivate the Rundschau formulas. Makes a little work to do it.

yessir!!!
habe ich auch schon gedacht..
da kam der hilfsbereite kollege aus indiana und warf frau knowles (menswear...)in die waagschale.
wenn sie´s nicht kann,dann werden eben mal wieder verschiedene faktoren "verheiratet"
solche zwangsehen führen doch häufig zm ziel ;>)
gruss nach houston,nicht nach deer park..
acecaps

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Edited by ACECAPS, 01 May 2010 - 08:41 AM.


#4 Nishijin

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 11:23 PM

Sorry, but would it be possible to post in English here, as asked by the forum chart ? I mean, I also could write in French, Spanish, a little Japanese even if I wanted, but this will not increase forum readibility by other peoples.

There are a lot of members to whom (?) English is not their native langage, and we all agree to do the effort of writing the best English we can. So I cannot but find it offensive when other people do not do the same. I cannot read german, and if your post was addressed restrictively to DZ, pm are there for a reason.

I hope that someon like DZ will understand me, I still remember his first messages when he was not so fluent in English as he is now, and the struggle it was for him...
http://www.paulgrassart.com

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
Mark Twain

#5 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 02:23 AM

I still can't understand a word from DZ :p

You are probably not getting as many answers as you would like, but jeans simply are not an item tailors make... you want jeans that's what the RTW guys do.
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#6 jcsprowls

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 03:38 AM

What makes denim a confusing sector to get into is that it requires knowledge of fabric chemistry and finishing in addition to patternmaking and construction. In RTW, we make prototype garments over-and-over, again, until the garment can be made in quantity. In other words: we rehearse each style.

If you're developing jeans for market, you have to make samples, send them through the wash process and evaluate what changes to the pattern are required and continue to re-sample until you achieve the desired result. Getting into the jeans market is very expensive unless you want to buy a private label run (otherwise known as "special make up" or "SMU") from a manufacturing facility that will sew in your label.

Raw denim is much easier to work with by comparison. There are no post-process finishes, so you only need to account for the properties of the goods and the sewing processes when creating the pattern.

What DZ is saying is that you can rip down a pair of jeans that you like, then lay the Rundschau drafting system "on top" to derive how to change the draft using a scientific method. Again... not particularly difficult. It's just reverse-engineering. I will reiterate, however, that you must prove every pattern by sewing it up as a sample before you can analyze the results. Depending how much experience you have to fill in the knowledge gaps, this can take a while.

You mentioned you want to work with selvedge denim. The patterns for these look different than other 5-pk styles. The side seam is poker-straight, which means the grain is different than what you will find in a pattern book. This also means the crutch and inseam curves need to be different because the grain shift alters the degree of stretch in these areas.

There are three ways to learn how to make selvedge denim patterns: a) you hire a patternmaker with selvedge denim experience to teach you, b) you setup experiments to teach yourself (i.e. reverse engineering); or, c) you take a job working for a selvedge denim company.

An example of a DIY startup company in the raw denim sector is: http://www.roydenim.com/story I haven't met this chap, personally. But, I'd like to. According to his story, he set out to teach himself. Then, he found what I call "angel mentors" along the way - people who were willing to share small bits of guidance as he earned it.
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#7 Schneidergott

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 04:19 AM

I don't see the difference between a Rundschau Jeans draft and an American version...

Here is a Rundschau draft for a "farmer jeans" (whatever makes it that is beyond me :Thinking: )

Posted Image

Posted Image

I used this pattern quite a while back and it looked good to (and on) me. Although I am not a farmer... :Big Grin:

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#8 Terri

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 10:05 AM

You mentioned you want to work with selvedge denim. The patterns for these look different than other 5-pk styles. The side seam is poker-straight, which means the grain is different than what you will find in a pattern book. This also means the crutch and inseam curves need to be different because the grain shift alters the degree of stretch in these areas.


I haven't seen many "real American jeans" drafts and I suspect that many of these are developed by each brand and are proprietary, so you may not find them.

If you are interested in making a one-off (or doing an experiment), and if you have some experience with patternmaking, it is not that difficult to develop a pattern. It is a good exercise as well to think about shapes for patterns in different ways- for instance start with the outseam as a straight line, as the selvedge edge jeans do. Mark off the waist, rise, knee and hem as a regular draft has you do it.. How tight should they be in the body? How tight through the thigh? Start with 1/4 hip for the front and mark that off. If they are tight fitting the fork should be reduced from a standard trouser draft, use your eye and judgement and mark a reduced front extension...... Continue in this manner, referring to the regular trouser draft, inspecting or reverse engineering a pair of existing jeans at the same time and try it out.

Just a hint- the CF will necessarily be off the straight grain and the CB may well be close to being on full bias in jeans like that. As JC infers- bias stretches and it will need to be taken into account.

Keep notes as you go- cut a pair in a toile fabric just to see if you are close, and if you are cut in some denim and try it- leave allowances for alteration. There's nothing to lose and perhaps something to gain by trying.

#9 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 10:51 AM

Sorry, but would it be possible to post in English here, as asked by the forum chart ? I mean, I also could write in French, Spanish, a little Japanese even if I wanted, but this will not increase forum readibility by other peoples.

There are a lot of members to whom (?) English is not their native langage, and we all agree to do the effort of writing the best English we can. So I cannot but find it offensive when other people do not do the same. I cannot read german, and if your post was addressed restrictively to DZ, pm are there for a reason.

I hope that someon like DZ will understand me, I still remember his first messages when he was not so fluent in English as he is now, and the struggle it was for him...


Acecaps is struggling with the tailor langauage in english, this is hard. I am doing better now. Acecpas just made a little fun only.

J. Maclochlainn always makes me laughing with its selective ears, I know he understand everything. :p

I bought a translation book for tailors, it was very expensive, 145Euro, because the publischer things tailors are rich now. :ike:

The construction of Rundschau from SG should work.

Edited by Der Zuschneider, 02 May 2010 - 10:52 AM.

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#10 ACECAPS

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:49 AM

I don't see the difference between a Rundschau Jeans draft and an American version...

Here is a Rundschau draft for a "farmer jeans" (whatever makes it that is beyond me :Thinking: )

Posted Image

Posted Image

I used this pattern quite a while back and it looked good to (and on) me. Although I am not a farmer... :Big Grin:


thank you,SG SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THIS ISSUE OF THE RUNDSCHAU:
danke sg,scheint so ,als hätte ich diese ausgabe der rundschau nicht.
merci SG,il semble que je n´ai pas cette edition de la rundschau.
äöü msxv SG gtres zuj loiö hgtr rundschau lkö äpoilm ngb.

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#11 Nishijin

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 02:44 AM

thank you,SG SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THIS ISSUE OF THE RUNDSCHAU:
danke sg,scheint so ,als hätte ich diese ausgabe der rundschau nicht.
merci SG,il semble que je n´ai pas cette edition de la rundschau.
äöü msxv SG gtres zuj loiö hgtr rundschau lkö äpoilm ngb.



Thanks ! :im Not Worthy: :clapping:


:rofl: :drinks:
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#12 ACECAPS

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 05:49 AM

What makes denim a confusing sector to get into is that it requires knowledge of fabric chemistry and finishing in addition to patternmaking and construction. In RTW, we make prototype garments over-and-over, again, until the garment can be made in quantity. In other words: we rehearse each style.

If you're developing jeans for market, you have to make samples, send them through the wash process and evaluate what changes to the pattern are required and continue to re-sample until you achieve the desired result. Getting into the jeans market is very expensive unless you want to buy a private label run (otherwise known as "special make up" or "SMU") from a manufacturing facility that will sew in your label.

Raw denim is much easier to work with by comparison. There are no post-process finishes, so you only need to account for the properties of the goods and the sewing processes when creating the pattern.

What DZ is saying is that you can rip down a pair of jeans that you like, then lay the Rundschau drafting system "on top" to derive how to change the draft using a scientific method. Again... not particularly difficult. It's just reverse-engineering. I will reiterate, however, that you must prove every pattern by sewing it up as a sample before you can analyze the results. Depending how much experience you have to fill in the knowledge gaps, this can take a while.

You mentioned you want to work with selvedge denim. The patterns for these look different than other 5-pk styles. The side seam is poker-straight, which means the grain is different than what you will find in a pattern book. This also means the crutch and inseam curves need to be different because the grain shift alters the degree of stretch in these areas.

There are three ways to learn how to make selvedge denim patterns: a) you hire a patternmaker with selvedge denim experience to teach you, b) you setup experiments to teach yourself (i.e. reverse engineering); or, c) you take a job working for a selvedge denim company.

An example of a DIY startup company in the raw denim sector is: http://www.roydenim.com/story I haven't met this chap, personally. But, I'd like to. According to his story, he set out to teach himself. Then, he found what I call "angel mentors" along the way - people who were willing to share small bits of guidance as he earned it.


Thank you very much for this very informative answer !!!
the info given was really helpful.
also very much appreciate the link to one mr. roy.
i have,meanwhile started multiple attacks,latter will,hopefully
flow together to a satisfying end.
kind regards from over the ocean,
acecaps of germany

#13 ACECAPS

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 05:57 AM

thank you,SG SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THIS ISSUE OF THE RUNDSCHAU:
danke sg,scheint so ,als hätte ich diese ausgabe der rundschau nicht.
merci SG,il semble que je n´ai pas cette edition de la rundschau.
äöü msxv SG gtres zuj loiö hgtr rundschau lkö äpoilm ngb.


hello,
i went deep into the drawers, i bet you guess what i fould there:
the farmer-jean draft(hidden between yawn-style slcks)
and a couple more jean drafts.
but,as i mentioned in the first place,
i wantd something AMERICAN ;-)
thanks to SG in the nearby town of solingen.
p.s.
have you heard they plan to close the müngsterner brücke
to all heavy train traffic? good ole stell lady seems to get
weak..

#14 ACECAPS

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 06:02 AM

Sorry, but would it be possible to post in English here, as asked by the forum chart ? I mean, I also could write in French, Spanish, a little Japanese even if I wanted, but this will not increase forum readibility by other peoples.

There are a lot of members to whom (?) English is not their native langage, and we all agree to do the effort of writing the best English we can. So I cannot but find it offensive when other people do not do the same. I cannot read german, and if your post was addressed restrictively to DZ, pm are there for a reason.

I hope that someon like DZ will understand me, I still remember his first messages when he was not so fluent in English as he is now, and the struggle it was for him...


i sure didn´t want to offend any of my estimated colleagues.
very nice to meet a frenchman here,too.
my wife is french,her mother comes from levallois-perret,
which is PARIS to most of us.as you may have guessed,
she also is a tailor and patternmaker.
your turn here;-)

#15 Nishijin

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 06:18 AM

i sure didn´t want to offend any of my estimated colleagues.


I had to be very tired when I wrote that. No offence taken, indeed, and I'm sorry for such an epidermic reaction.

Administrative zoning of Great Paris is historical and completely obsolete by today "real use" of the area. I know very well Levallois, I used to work there. It is only for Parisians of the Strict Observance that Levallois (and other towns around Paris) that it is "not Paris".
(Of course, your wife may not agree with me, it would only be justice).


And I really should learn German, indeed...
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Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
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#16 aharonK

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 06:09 AM

I don’t know about a completely” American” Draft but you may want to look at the drafts in some modern pattern making books like "Patternmaking for Fashion Design" by Helen Joseph Armstrong. There are multiple pant drafts and variation in there for both men and woman. I believe one is basically a knockoff of a levies 501 pattern (it does not get more American than that.) As well it goes through how to rub off garments without ripping them down. (This is sadly how many patterns are “developed” in industry.) Depending on you level of skill with pattern making you may want to consider rubbing off an existing pant and altering it to you preference from there. As well unlike older tailoring manuals "Patternmaking for Fashion Design" was created as a beginner text book for fashion student so the instructions are really comprehensive giving clear step bet step instructions that anyone could follow.
Aharon K




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