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#1 Newbie

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 06:32 AM

So I'm working on my pattern making skills and was drafting a shirt for a friend of mine. In general I'm rather pleased with the result, but I want your honest opinion on possible improvements. I used the new Rundschau draft from the Müller book, but have to admit, my overall expirience isn't that great. On several other occasion the shoulder width was way too small and the armhole needed rather severe alterations as well.

 

So this is the finished shirt after quite a lot of alterations already:

 

AE1.jpg

 

 

AE9.jpg

 

 

AE8.jpg

 

AE4.jpg

 

 

 

This is before I put the darts in the back (hence the excess of fabric), since the next one should do without any darts so I pinned how much I can take away from the side seams. I noticed that the drop on the left shoulder is off so I pinned this as well, it seems to be cut too sloped (don't know the right term). The neckline needs some alteration as well, there is some excess cloth around the collar which should be removed.

 

Other than that there are some unpleasent wrinkles from the chest down to the side seam, I don't really know of an easy way to get rid of them, so any advice would be more than welcomed.

 

The last thing I noticed are the wrinkles on the sleeves. I read that this might be fixed by rotating the sleeve, but I'm not sure how to go about it i.e. how to transfer this to the pattern in a way that you can set in the sleeve before closing the side seams.

 

 

 

 



#2 dpcoffin

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 09:01 AM

First thing I'd do is take off the sleeves and pin out back length horizontally across the shoulder blade area to smooth out and thus identify the back excess that's caused by the back being too long. Only after that (iow, BEFORE you open the sides) would I start experimenting with side-seam and back dart adjustments to circumference. I'm heading out the door, but will post a bit more of my opinions about doing that when I get back.

 

When the body looks better, then I'd start pinning the sleeves back to more accurately match the sleeve-cap shape to the upper arm and armhole shapes on this particular body. I see that as much more of an issue than any need to rotate them.

 

Hopefully others will be along to offer more flat-pattern/drafting-oriented suggestions. Mine all come from a draping on the body perspective. Same goals, different methods.

 

Seconding your current observations about the neckline… Shirt's looking pretty good otherwise, IMO:)  

 

OK, here's some grabs from my shirt-fitting book that covers some of your issues; questions welcome, but the answer in most cases is to be willing to adjust, re-adjust, and adjust some more:) Also, be willing to make multiple muslin tests, tracing off each one for the next round of adjustments as you zero in, BEFORE you even get to the sleeves.

 

vaUV4m.jpg


Edited by dpcoffin, 25 August 2019 - 11:28 AM.

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#3 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 11:22 AM

In addition to Davids comments above :).

 

Next time I would suggest a bit more front balance in the region above the chest line.  That might affect the back also, but for a smoother back, it looks to me like there is a lack of width at the back waist.

 

G


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#4 Martin Stall

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 05:01 PM

The first and biggest problem is that the front length is too short. That's why you have the diagonals pointing up to the neckpoint. Incidentally, the direction of such folds often points to where the problem is.

 

If you'd drop the front by raising the neckpoint, the diagonal lines would be less, the front hem would be straight (sideview) and the cloth would stick against the seat so much. And the messy part above the seat would be smoother as well.

 

You can't add length to the front though, so the only thing that could - in theory - work, is to open the shoulder and lower the shoulder point. But by then, you're shortening the entire shirt and making an enormous mess, and there's 99% chance that the shirt wouldn't be wearable.

 

It really isn't a bad piece, you know. I'd probably recommend you leave it as is - or perhaps only remove the excess cloth below the collar.

 

Also: ALWAYS start with muslin when trying new drafts. Did I say always? I meant always.

 

You wouldn't believe the amount of hell  :mad: my teacher used to give me, when I'd come in with actual cloth, intent on making something new, and insisting it be wearable. Basically, trying to have garment #1 be wearable is the biggest mistake a student can make.

 

Edit: while you might be able to improve the fit somewhat, the front length is a fundamental and serious error, and as long as it's not fixed, no other hacks or tricks will get the shirt *right*. That's why the first one should always be muslin.


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Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

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#5 peterle

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 07:59 PM

I second the opinion that your front balance is to short. When you enlarge it, the diagonal folds from the chest to the back will get less or dissapear, also the back neckhole will relax, and the front hem will not be be pulled away from the body. Also the front armhole will probably move to the right spot. It seems to be pulled out of position in the side view.

 

You said you altered the left shoulder, but in the pics the right shoulder is the sloping shoulder. Please keep in mind in tailoring left and right are always meant from the wearer´s view. THis helps to avoid misunderstandings.

 

Don´t take out too much in the sideseam waist. It will increase the diagonal pulling. You can´t compensate a back dart with side seam take outs. When you want to avoid a back dart you can hide it in a seam like in David´s pics or you have to remove it by dart manipulation. (wich requires ironwork in shirt fabric; not always successfull).

 

Nice stripe matching from yoke to sleeve!


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#6 Newbie

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 08:36 PM

Thank you all for the great advice, I can't even begin to describe how helpful this forum was for me so far (in addition to David's Book of course, which got me started and is still of inestimable value to me).

 

I'm of course a little disappointed I didn't see the front balance issue myself, but with all those things it only seems obvious after you pointed it out. Concerning the fix: As mentioned the additional front lenght should probably be added at the chest area. so how do I adjust the armhole, after adding the lenght there. Also, the neckpoint on this shirt is rather high already, so I think it wouldn't fit properly if I raise it even more. 


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#7 Newbie

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 08:48 PM

I second the opinion that your front balance is to short. When you enlarge it, the diagonal folds from the chest to the back will get less or dissapear, also the back neckhole will relax, and the front hem will not be be pulled away from the body. Also the front armhole will probably move to the right spot. It seems to be pulled out of position in the side view.

 

You said you altered the left shoulder, but in the pics the right shoulder is the sloping shoulder. Please keep in mind in tailoring left and right are always meant from the wearer´s view. THis helps to avoid misunderstandings.

 

Don´t take out too much in the sideseam waist. It will increase the diagonal pulling. You can´t compensate a back dart with side seam take outs. When you want to avoid a back dart you can hide it in a seam like in David´s pics or you have to remove it by dart manipulation. (wich requires ironwork in shirt fabric; not always successfull).

 

Nice stripe matching from yoke to sleeve!

 

Thanks peterle, I did in fact meant the left shoulder. I think my initial posting was a little confusing. I did all the pinning I described after taking the picture. I altered the sloping of the shoulder on both sides before making up the shirt but went too far on the left shoulder, I guess. To fix this I think it would be best to flatten the shoulder line by giving a little bit extra on the front and yoke, right? Giving that the yoke seems to be leaning a little on the right side, I think flattening the shoulder by taking away the pinned out fabric would make the issue worst



#8 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 10:17 PM

Thanks David, I did not see your images this morning. 

 

G


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 25 August 2019 - 10:17 PM.

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#9 peterle

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 01:01 AM

The easiest ways to increase the front balance for 2cm:

In the shirt itself open the side seams and shift the front about 2cm up relatively to the back. Resew. There will be steps in the armhole and at the hem, wich are to be harmonized.

 

In the paper pattern: Draw a horizontal line across the front pattern where the armhole has the most hollow.(about 8cm above the chest line). Cut the line and insert a 2cm wide strip of paper. Smooth the armhole line. Draft a new sleeve crown.

 

For the shoulder: the normal shoulder slope is changed best at the true shoulder line. I think the Rundschau patter shifts the front yoke seam 2cm towards the front, so the true shoulder line is 2cm behind the front yoke seam. Look it up in your pattern.

For a one sided hanging shoulder this also can be sufficient, but in more sever cases, the pattern must be slashed an pivoted. You can look it up in the forum, we already dealt with it several times.


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#10 Newbie

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 11:57 PM

So I did another fitting following Davids advice and pinning the back horizontaly and it really seems to help with most of the issues. I was pinning away about 1,5 cm and the balance was right, the excess at the neck disappeared and the wrinkles from chest to back got severley better. Even the armhole was fitting better. So I was wondering if it is possible to just transfer this to the paper pattern and take away the 1,5 cm from the back or does this bring some new problems with it? The reason I ask is that for some reason I am hesitant to add to the front given how high the neckpoint already is.



#11 peterle

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 07:56 AM

First, when you increase the front balance you will not rise the neckpoint, you will lower the chestline, so no reason for hesitating.

 

When you take away the 1,5cm in the paper pattern you also make the back armhole shorter. Maybe too short. The armhole seems to be quite tight anyway. It would be better to disitribute the necessary balance difference (1,5cm as you found out) by decreasing the back balance just by 0,75cm and increasing the front balance by 0,75cm. This cares for the right balance difference but keeps the armhole size as is.


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#12 Newbie

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 02:09 AM

This is the shirt with minor alteration to the front balance and the shoulde slope. I know I should have used a muslin cloth first but he wanted a shirt for a wedding, and I think it is wearable after all.

 

So I made the following changes:

I added 0,75 cm in the chest area and took the same amount from the back to correct the front balance issue. I added 0.5 cm height on the left shoulder and took away about 1 cm from each side seam as was requested from the wearer himself (I adviced against it), I tried to compensate by making the armhole a little bigger. I also lowerd the neckpoint by 1 cm. Despite the sleeves, which are still a mess, the changes seemed to have worked out rather well. The back is much cleaner, the yoke doesn't lean to the right as in the previous shirt. The diagonal wrinkles from the chest to the side seams are a little less prominent, so I think I can easily get rid of them by the method illustrated by David above.

 

20190902-160514.jpg
 
 

20190902-160553.jpg
 
20190902-160439.jpg
 
 

One thing I noticed, is that the neckpoint is still too high so I would lower even further. Also the armhole seems to be a little too high, hence the pulling on the back in this area. Since I think everything looks rather tight around the chest and back area I think one can add a little extra to make it more comforable. I was planning the following changes:

 

Pattern-Alteration.jpg
 
 
This is of course not the real pattern, but merely a sketch. The alterations are the red line. I was wondering if those changes would help at all.
 
Then there is the sleeve which still looks rather twisted... I was wondering how to go about it. I read in an old thread one could try to tilt it a little forward like so:
 
sleeve-alteration.jpg
 
 
 
Thanks again for all the great advice, I hope I'm not too bothersome.

 



#13 posaune

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 06:10 AM

Have you measured the right shoulder and the left shoulder on the customer? For me the left is much longer.

Have you measured the distance from the collar edges from CF. Are they equal? For me not.

Have you compared the front to the back shoulder in your alteration pic.? For me the front shoulder is longer than the back

An advice from me: Do not try to do so much alteration at once. Try one after the other.

Doing a muslin for such a customer is always helpfull.

lg

posaune

 

a pic without the sleeves and the collar would be more helpfull.


Edited by posaune, 03 September 2019 - 06:14 AM.

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#14 Newbie

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 04:43 PM

Have you measured the right shoulder and the left shoulder on the customer? For me the left is much longer.

Have you measured the distance from the collar edges from CF. Are they equal? For me not.

Have you compared the front to the back shoulder in your alteration pic.? For me the front shoulder is longer than the back

An advice from me: Do not try to do so much alteration at once. Try one after the other.

Doing a muslin for such a customer is always helpfull.

lg

posaune

 

a pic without the sleeves and the collar would be more helpfull.

 

Thanks posaune for the response.

 

I measured the shoulders and they are the same length. The right shoulder has a rather significant forward slope and therefore looks significantly shorter on the picture. The same goes for the collar points. I measured them at least three times and the appear to have the same distance from CF. However it seems that on the picture the stand folded over at the buttoning point causing it to look asymmetrical (I wonder if this is because there is too much spring in the collar, given it is a rather stiff interlining?)

 

Concerning the alteration picture: it is a mere sketch, meaning, it's only a rather flimsy painting of what a shirt draft looks like in general and has nothing to do with the pattern itself. I just wanted to show my proposed alterations at least in an abstract way.

 

I have to admit that my major concern are the sleeves for now, because I don't really know what to do with them. I most likely will make up a musslin with my proposed alterations next, but I don't have any idea how to correct the sleeve twisting in an efficient way


Edited by Newbie, 03 September 2019 - 07:15 PM.


#15 peterle

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 07:37 PM

Before you can do the sleeves you have to get the armholes right.

It seems to me the armholes pull at the back, so maybe they are not deep enough. You can measure that: take a piece of paper and fold it to a stiffer strip. Let you client clamp the strip under his arm as high as possible and bend the strip horizontally  towards the center back. Measure from the 7th (protruding) vertebra to the upper edge of the strip. You should find the same amount +2cm in your pattern from the center back neck point to the chest line (wich is also the bottom line of the armhole).

Remember: when you have to increase the shoulder slope, always shift the whole armhole downwards, not only the shoulder tips, otherwise the armhole gets to short.

 

Shape of the armhole: when you think of the finished armhole seam, it resembles an upright egg shape. on your client the tip of this egg shape seems to be tilted towards the front wich makes tight spots at the front shoulder bone and the lower area at the back armhole.  You should aim to get this egg shape also tilted in you trunk and sleeve pattern pieces. ( The sleeve crown will then look as in your sketch)

 

The front neckhole: before you make it deeper try this: pin the center front closed on the client with a pin directly under the collar seam caring for mathicng center lines. Now look wether the button and the buttonhole of the collar match. Maybe the buttonhole is just too short or the button is attached to low.

 

The front balance is yet too short in my eyes.

 

Another tip: the sleeve slash for cufflink cuffs is worked a bit differentely than usual, take a look on it at the warehouse or a thrift store to get an impression. At least the underlap has to be folded inwards when you sew on the cuff.


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#16 Newbie

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 08:04 PM

Before you can do the sleeves you have to get the armholes right.

It seems to me the armholes pull at the back, so maybe they are not deep enough. You can measure that: take a piece of paper and fold it to a stiffer strip. Let you client clamp the strip under his arm as high as possible and bend the strip horizontally  towards the center back. Measure from the 7th (protruding) vertebra to the upper edge of the strip. You should find the same amount +2cm in your pattern from the center back neck point to the chest line (wich is also the bottom line of the armhole).

Remember: when you have to increase the shoulder slope, always shift the whole armhole downwards, not only the shoulder tips, otherwise the armhole gets to short.

 

Shape of the armhole: when you think of the finished armhole seam, it resembles an upright egg shape. on your client the tip of this egg shape seems to be tilted towards the front wich makes tight spots at the front shoulder bone and the lower area at the back armhole.  You should aim to get this egg shape also tilted in you trunk and sleeve pattern pieces. ( The sleeve crown will then look as in your sketch)

 

The front neckhole: before you make it deeper try this: pin the center front closed on the client with a pin directly under the collar seam caring for mathicng center lines. Now look wether the button and the buttonhole of the collar match. Maybe the buttonhole is just too short or the button is attached to low.

 

The front balance is yet too short in my eyes.

 

Another tip: the sleeve slash for cufflink cuffs is worked a bit differentely than usual, take a look on it at the warehouse or a thrift store to get an impression. At least the underlap has to be folded inwards when you sew on the cuff.

 

Thanks so much for all the great advice. I was wondering if there was still a balance issue, I will try to pin the back again. I have to admit, that I made a rather silly mistake while cutting: I cut the armscye on the right side 0,5 deeper than planned, therefore there isn't as much pulling as on the left side. But I will definitly try to measure it, before making any changes. 

 

Concerning the neckline, I will try that as well, but I think there still is some excess cloth, so there seems to be a neckline issue after all. 

 

I know I have to open the right cuff again, I simply forgot to fold the underlap inwards. I did so on the left cuff but overall the whole sleeve/slash etc seems to be a mess.

 

I slowly realize why it is always recommended to perfect the pattern on a musslin shirt before going for the real stuff ;)


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#17 peterle

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 02:03 AM

Yes, a muslin is super. You can add all the inlays you could need for fitting, without collar and sleeves you can  judge the fit of these holes better, you can mark the best line for the yoke, you can do a shoulder fitting and you can mark the true shoulder point of the client.


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