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The English High Rise Trouser


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#55 greger

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 11:27 AM

Why haven't you pressed along the grain on the back piece? I thought you were meant to do it for the back and front - is it usual to do this only for the front piece?


Only the front. The back leg should run on the grain from hem to knee. If short on cloth then the back can be tilted, but it is not a good practice to be short on cloth.

DZ, Looks very nice. Like to see them on (pictures straight on, sideways and 45 degrees). Pressed thin as a pancake, that is, a thin pancake (I guess that would be swedish pancakes).

#56 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 12:18 PM

Why haven't you pressed along the grain on the back piece? I thought you were meant to do it for the back and front - is it usual to do this only for the front piece?


This is not possible. The back piece leaves the grain from the knee upwards cause of the ironwork, which is most important.
The back trouser is also constructed crooked to avoid unquietness in the side seam and hollow ot the knee.
It might be possible that some older systems go with the grain in the back, but then it can be bad iron work or a bad fit of the system.
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#57 rs232

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 12:56 PM

This is not possible. The back piece leaves the grain from the knee upwards cause of the ironwork, which is most important.
The back trouser is also constructed crooked to avoid unquietness in the side seam and hollow ot the knee.
It might be possible that some older systems go with the grain in the back, but then it can be bad iron work or a bad fit of the system.


Ah drat, that's the problem with learning out of textbooks. I occasionally miss things that everyone seems to just know and are thus never explicitly mentioned.
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#58 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 01:05 PM

Still this is only a practice trouser, my first project after 21 years. The trouser is not perfect, it looks like perfect. It also fits quite well. But the next trouser will have changes. I had to work after the old books and every book says something else and thinks right. Today we have better minds than the old tailors which mostly didn't work to accurate with their hand stitching seam over seam like concrete, nothing really straight. I have 3 high rise from 1936 laying here, terrible made but still good for that time. The principle of making the waist is always the same but not the cleanness.

For the next trouser, I would not put so much ease over the bottom, they did a little bit too much with 1/20 Gu in 1930. Though it looks like cosy like in the old days. Some tailors almost produced a tent over the bottom. Plenty of things in the making I would also change to make it more rational. For instance I made the mistake to sew with 3 different threads and I always had to change threads including machine adjustments. I will never do that mistake again. But I did not find the right thread in the beginning here so I stumbled around and it came to switch around. I also would cut on the waist in the back trouser. It makes changes easier plus it is very hard to iron dress the straight waist band up to the fish tail. The fish tail could have been a little bit higher, but this is only possible with cut on waist band. I also will avoid a pleat, I am not too slim anymore and I don't need all those width in the front. Also the dress bulge on the left side confuses me, most people will waive it. Modern drawers make the dress obsolete.

I still see my father and grandfather walking with such pants, and people were laughing in the 70this what weird pants they had.

It is very hard and time consuming to make such trouser, once I am sorted I should produce such trouser maybe in 3 days with the same or better quality. I only do hand stitching where it is necessary, cause there is no other way around to make it look nice. There is already a lot of basting involved. I almost never sew free hand…maybe cloth without design/stripes you could do free hand.

The high rise comes with a German or English lining. The German lining is covering the fish tail. The English lining leaves it open. I prefer the German lining as it looks cleaner.

Another funny thing when I started, I took out my basting thread I bought in eBay. The 2km Spool was probably from the 50thies original wrapped and I did a few stitches and it always dissolved into pieces after 3 stitches. I thought it was the needle and I tried hard couldn’t make it and finally took some white thread which never tore. We need to find someone to palm off the nice ancient spools of basting thread which never works and drive you crazy.

Edited by Der Zuschneider, 15 December 2010 - 03:04 PM.

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#59 Guyé

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 03:31 AM

This is not possible. The back piece leaves the grain from the knee upwards cause of the ironwork, which is most important.
The back trouser is also constructed crooked to avoid unquietness in the side seam and hollow ot the knee.
It might be possible that some older systems go with the grain in the back, but then it can be bad iron work or a bad fit of the system.


Der Zuschneider, would you please explain us how you do that ironwork? I've always pressed along the grain in both front and back piece also, and don't know of an ironwork system wich deverts it.

It would be nice to know different methods. Thanks a lot.

#60 rs232

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 05:39 AM

Der Zuschneider, would you please explain us how you do that ironwork? I've always pressed along the grain in both front and back piece also, and don't know of an ironwork system wich deverts it.

It would be nice to know different methods. Thanks a lot.


It's a bit of a "eureka" moment for me. He's right; if you press as the cloth lays naturally on its side, the creases curve into the buttocks more "severely" when standing, and hang better. Not to mention flatter and more conveniently in a wardrobe :D. Otherwise, to get the creases in the right place, if pressing on the grain, the seat angle would have to be too severe. Finally I understand!

I'm doing a pair myself now (nowhere near as good, and not made for braces). I'll post them this weekend.

#61 NW Tailor

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 05:44 AM

Der Zuschneider, would you please explain us how you do that ironwork? I've always pressed along the grain in both front and back piece also, and don't know of an ironwork system wich deverts it.

It would be nice to know different methods. Thanks a lot.



Guyé, why don't you check out the pinned topics at the beginning of the Trouser and Waistcoat forum? There is an excellent one on ironwork, which I think is what you are asking for...
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#62 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 06:33 AM

Final pressing with 16 lb iron. The fabric is very stubborn, the cloth needs a lot of iron with heavy irons very hot. The smaller iron was already too weak for this pressing. The long board you see is called 'Lange Pressplanke' you put it on top of the crease to suck the steam and getting cold. You also use it to iron out the inner seam of the leg. There is also a short one to be seen in the back ground, could be used for sleeves or to iron something tight on top of it.

I hang the trouser on the ceiling lamp, could not find a better place. The trouser needs to hang and get cold.

Now only the 13 button attached and ready. But I wait for my suspenders, Deutsche Wertarbeit - made in Germany by hand.

I was thinking I could open expensive 3 weeks workshops in my 5 bedroom house for rich designers to make the ultimate trouser… from cut to wear including all handwork learning. But then I can’t sell my trousers cause everybody makes them, so I better keep my secrets for me.

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#63 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 06:51 AM

Der Zuschneider, would you please explain us how you do that ironwork? I've always pressed along the grain in both front and back piece also, and don't know of an ironwork system wich deverts it.

It would be nice to know different methods. Thanks a lot.


Is not to explain only to show. Tailoring is a difficult trade, you need to find a master that show you or you have to read books and descriptions many days to understand it.
The master would show you the iron work in 5 minutes versus many days reading and comprehending
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#64 Lokar

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 07:03 AM

Very, very nice. I'm jealous! How wide are they at the bottom?

#65 Torry Kratch

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 07:25 AM

Excellent work! Thanks for the detailed photos!

I would like to a little practical advice: Line bend the front half is better placed between the strips, in this case, the final ironing small distortions will not be visible.

#66 jukes

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 08:13 AM

DZ
Lovely work
Do you not tack the bottom of the fly ??

#67 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:42 PM

DZ
Lovely work
Do you not tack the bottom of the fly ??


Yes is tacked with a small triangel, the picture don't show it. The first button also will hardly be opened later, the tack goes through all layers and is thigt.
The examples trousers I have here also have it like that.
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#68 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:43 PM

Very, very nice. I'm jealous! How wide are they at the bottom?


23/46cm very decent and old fashion, 4cm cuffs.

Wait until I take the final picture me wearing them. I just was walking around to check the suspender button seat in the front.
Those trousers are beasts!!! I am waiting for my suspenders from Germany, handmade, Deutsche Wertarbeit, Snow-white.

Edited by Der Zuschneider, 16 December 2010 - 01:42 PM.

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#69 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:50 PM

Excellent work! Thanks for the detailed photos!

I would like to a little practical advice: Line bend the front half is better placed between the strips, in this case, the final ironing small distortions will not be visible.


This is absolutely inacceptable, the crease has to go with the stripe. That’s way cloth stripe design is a challenge.
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#70 Lokar

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 08:15 PM

23/46cm very decent and old fashion, 4cm cuffs.

Wait until I take the final picture me wearing them. I just was walking around to check the suspender button seat in the front.
Those trousers are beasts!!! I am waiting for my suspenders from Germany, handmade, Deutsche Wertarbeit, Snow-white.


:clapping:

#71 Guyé

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 02:25 AM

It's a bit of a "eureka" moment for me. He's right; if you press as the cloth lays naturally on its side, the creases curve into the buttocks more "severely" when standing, and hang better. Not to mention flatter and more conveniently in a wardrobe :D. Otherwise, to get the creases in the right place, if pressing on the grain, the seat angle would have to be too severe. Finally I understand!

I'm doing a pair myself now (nowhere near as good, and not made for braces). I'll post them this weekend.


Looking at Der Zuschneider last photographs I also understood it! I always thought it was a wrong practise, since you were devering the crease fom the grain, wich I always follow when cutting. And, of course, my trousers never laid flat, cause their seat angle was never so big. I will put this in practice in the next pair I'll made!

NW Tailor, I have readed the post that you talk about, 'Trouser Making - Ironwork Part II', thanks for your suggestion. I readed it a while ago, but did it again to refresh it on my head. It seems to me that the trousers shown are cut so 'crooked' that each side of the crease is the same wide, so they lay flat without moving the crease from the grain. In fact, they don't move the crease from the grain in neither front or back, and so I didn't get it since I readed rs232 post and saw Der Zuschneider pictures. But the whole post is of great help and very useful.

Der Zuschneider, I agree with you! Learning by books is hard, now when I read again some of them I realise how simple it is to understand something that took me a long time to get. But sadly it is almost impossible that I'd find a master tailor here where I live, so I'll have to take the long way! But posts like this yours are of great help, thanks a lot for taking the time to post it and share it with us!

#72 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 04:43 AM

The beast is ready! But one final picture me wearing then comes when the handmade German suspenders are here. Then the trouser should go to a museum... :Doh:

To iron a pair of trousers is art and you need a few ironing tools, if you don't have them there is no way to get my results.
When my master tailor saw me ironing trousers, he said: You are an artist. I was 25 years old. So don't think it is easy, it's hell difficult to do it perfect.
If trousers then ironed you almost don't dare to wear them, so nice they are looking.

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