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Armhole: How deep do you cut it and what shape is best?


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#19 Terri

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 10:18 PM

Do you think part of the problem also is the relative width of the back of the body of the suit contributes to the low armhole dilemma. Most of the jackets I see are quite a bit wider than the person wearing them and I don't think you can have both a wide and easy fitting back and a high armhole..........

I can't say that using the proportional system has caused me too many low armholes but I am not using 1/2 chest scale but 1/2 working scale, and I am not cutting extra wide backs....
T

#20 Schneidergott

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 02:19 AM

Most of the jackets I see are quite a bit wider than the person wearing them and I don't think you can have both a wide and easy fitting back and a high armhole


Would that not speak against the drape cut? :Thinking:

A wider back is not the only problem, but along with the deep armhole comes an unnecessary large armhole diameter. I don't remember right now where I read it, but the text said that for a looser coat the armhole diameter must be smaller/ narrower (assuming that the armhole is high).
What I see most in our MTM coats are narrow backs, narrow sleeves and deep armholes and a wide front part chest area, which extends onto the biceps of the wearer. So the customer is not only restricted in movement by the narrow back and sleeve, but also by the extra cloth and canvas in the front.

Here is a diagram showing the relation between depth of armhole and range of movement:

Posted Image

The text on page 74 says the following:
1) a bigger and deeper armhole is uncomfortable.
2) a smaller armhole requires more accuracy and work
3) some tailors tried a sort of workaround by altering front and back (it doesn't say in the text, but my inspired guess after reading the descriptions of the defects would be a narrowing of front and back while keeping the deep armhole).

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#21 Terri

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 07:45 AM

Do you work with some kind of proportionate armhole diameter in mind when drafting?

What comes to mind for me is something in the range of 1/2 chest or 1/2 working scale plus 2.5cm but that has a lot of give and take. If I measure the armhole of the pattern and it is either much smaller or larger, I have a look at what could be causing the difference. Incorrect measurements usually...

In terms of narrow sleeves, well, I think that the RTW armholes are so large that a typical sleeve draft would produce a very wide sleeve. (Typical for me is one using 1/3 of armhole scale to determine the depth of crown.) It would look very unflattering, so obviously to get a narrower look, sleeves are cut with a very deep depth of crown. The deeper it is, the more restrictive it becomes, as you have pointed out.

I too have noticed the excess of width in the cross front area, which sits out on the biceps.
It is as if the bodies of the suits are being cut more like shirts but without the inherent movement that a shirt sleeve provides.

None of this answers any questions about how deep and the shape of armholes though, does it?!

T
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#22 Schneidergott

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 03:24 AM

Do you work with some kind of proportionate armhole diameter in mind when drafting?


The basic armhole diameter measurement of the Rundschau draft is 1/8 of the chest girth, to which a certain amount for ease is added (in 1954 it was 3 to 4cm). But I guess that varies with each different system or customer.

so obviously to get a narrower look, sleeves are cut with a very deep depth of crown. The deeper it is, the more restrictive it becomes, as you have pointed out.


If only. For some reason our MTM partner has chosen to reduce the cap height. They cut a rather pointed crown as well. Looks particularly nasty in a checked cloth and creates some bulging under the arms, because the under sleeve appears to be too long, although in fact it's the upper sleeve (cap) being too short. Here is a (bad) example:

Posted Image

Here is a way better one (taken from the autumn/ winter collection of Samuelsohn):

Posted Image

On the subject of the shape of the armhole: This is a big size ( german RTW size 63, which is about 130cm waist), but I doubt that any customer has a body that is similarly shaped in that area.

Posted Image

This on is on a narrow hanger, but in real life it can be even worse:

Posted Image

I think it is clear where the restriction of movement comes from. We have a lot of "enormous" customers, but I have never met anyone who filled out that armhole. Even with a wide shirt on there is still a lot of space between shirt sleeve and coat armhole.
So, if not the biggest of the big (except wrestlers and bodybuilders) can fill the armhole out, why are they still cut so big?
In MTM a lot of adjustments can be made, a list of them can be found here:

http://tuttofattoama...to-measure.html

Major problem is to have well trained and experienced staff to correct the pattern when and where necessary, and many companies try to save money in that sector. Pity.
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#23 Terri

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 08:34 AM

Yikes! That is awful! You must feel very frustrated.

I'm sorry, I made a mistake in my last post. I meant to ask whether you worked with an armhole circumference in mind for a particular size of jacket, not diameter. Sorry to cause any confusion.

I wish I could answer the question as to why the armholes are so low- I really don't know much about how or who makes the patterns for those jackets or RTW factories.

Speechless.......


#24 jcsprowls

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 12:08 PM

@Terri

I can't speak for anyone else. But, I don't keep the armhole circumference in mind for drafting. I do use it as a checkpoint after I draft to determine if I did my work properly. I may need scoop out a little here or there (never more than 1/8") to meet the armhole circumference plus ease amount. But, it's a reconciliation point; not a driving element for me.

@Schneidergott

I know that MTM works differently - the customer wants to see the finished garment. But, I honestly think there is a process problem. I don't cut sleeves without first proving a body. Whether too deep, too wide, not round enough, etc. - I just can't tell unless the sleeve is out of the garment.

If it were me (and you have to know that I'm an upstart) I'd probably [deliberately] cut the scye too high so when the sewing/outwork were returned, I'd remove the sleeves, throw them away, fit the body then draft the final sleeve. One tailor shop I worked for used to make muslin sleeves for the 1st sew. Would your company consider doing the same? It's far less expensive to waste cotton or last year's wool ends than to remake the entire jacket body or two new sleeves.

I just shake my head thinking of the lost drafting time. Drafting sleeves, twice, for every single garment is a huge waste that can be avoided. It would be difficult for me to contain my displeasure. You have my sympathies.

@Terri, again

RE: proportion of sleeve cap. My opinion is that most drafting systems typically use either 1/3 or 1/4 armhole scale simply because they're easy to locate on the drafting square. It is a reasonable proportion. However, in practice, I've memorized my preferred cap height because standard processes make things more reliable and faster.

For shirts, I'll make a sleeve cap anywhere from 3 1/2" to 5" in 1/2" increments, depending on the loosness/fit the style requires. For suit & sportscoats, I tend to gravitate between 5 1/2" to 6 1/2" in 1/4" increments. For outerwear, between 4 1/2" and 6" in 1/4" increments. Look back over all the patterns you've made. I'm relatively certain there's a trend in there that you can implement as your "stock cap height".
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#25 Schneidergott

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 08:15 PM

We as the tailors who have to deal with this sort of things, sadly, have no influence on the final outcome.
We have the possibility to get a basted fitting if the customer is very crooked and doesn't mind paying another 100,- Euros, but that is done by another maker ( we have 2 of them, one is a big RTW company, the other one much smaller, which is outsourcing a lot of work) and the result is not always better, depending on the person doing the pattern manipulation/ cutting.
Keep in mind that most of the staff have no proper training when it comes to pattern drafting/ manipulation and that they are badly paid for their job, so they can't spend hours to make a good fitting pattern.
About the RTW company: I'm not sure about whether the pattern for our suits were made by an employee of our company or if they use their own patterns. Looking at their own styles and shapes I doubt the latter. When I asked or spoke to people who should know I got contradictory answers.
The other maker is the one who did MTM for us since our company started it about 30 years ago. The major problem he is facing is a lack of good staff and equipment. Plus he gets the orders that are beyond any regular physical scales and size charts, so I don't envy him.

I don't mind the rather dull look of our suits. What is freaking me out is the attitude of my direct superior and the other people in charge of cut and cloth acquisition.
None of them is interested in improving the cut and make and the quality of the fabrics used, so nothings gonna change. Just a whole lot of talk without any result! What ever happened to the good old german attitude of solving problems?
I remember an old saying: Send a german into the jungle with a pocket knife an he'll come back with a locomotive. Well, I'm afraid those days are long gone. Looking at the people around me today it would be a scenario close to this: Doesn't know how to open the pocket knife, trys to find an instruction on the internet with his cellphone but fails because he doesn't know how to spell "pocket knife", walks into the jungle anyway, where he gets either eaten by wild animals and/ or filmed by a private TV station film crew. crazy.gif Either way, no locomotive!

Back to the problem of deep armholes: The basic RTW/ MTM pattern already has a lot of ease and it becomes bigger with each size during grading.
I can't be sure, but I guess they'd start with a size 50 (100cm chest) and grade from that up to 62, making the armhole wider and deeper with each step (usually around 5mm each). I checked my Rundschau stock pattern, and from 50 to 58 the armhole gets 3cm deeper and 2,5 cm wider. And that is a small armhole to start from.

I have a size chart attached for the standard german sizes (some conversions are in it, too).

Attached Files


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#26 Terri

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 04:05 AM

But, I don't keep the armhole circumference in mind for drafting. I do use it as a checkpoint after I draft to determine if I did my work properly. I may need scoop out a little here or there (never more than 1/8") to meet the armhole circumference plus ease amount. But, it's a reconciliation point; not a driving element for me.


I don't use an armhole circumference as part of my drafting process, but as a checkpoint as well.
Can you explain what you mean by the armhole circumference plus ease.
The ease is confusing me.
I draft, measure the armhole size that results and if I think that it is too large or too small, I then look at what in the drafting process has caused that, analyze the issue and decide to change things if required. To me the armhole size is the armhole size-no extra ease is required.

In terms of drafting sleeves after the body is proven- I don't seem to have problems with doing it right from the beginning. I find that even after alterations to the body I am right back to the armhole size I figured in the beginning. The sleeve shape I make tends to go into the armhole shape I make without trouble.

I will though do a muslin sleeve for some fittings- especially for a plaid- I want to fit the body first and I don't want to waste fabric.

Keep in mind that most of the staff have no proper training when it comes to pattern drafting/ manipulation and that they are badly paid for their job, so they can't spend hours to make a good fitting pattern.


I'm unsure about the process involved in what you are describing, and your part in it. Are the pattern makers for these companies untrained? or the people selling the product to the public?
I find it hard to believe that your superiors see no problem with things like you describe, but they obviously do not have to fix them nor do they have any understanding of the body or pattern making.
T

#27 Schneidergott

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 05:36 AM

I'm unsure about the process involved in what you are describing, and your part in it. Are the pattern makers for these companies untrained? or the people selling the product to the public?


Well, I'm part of the people selling it to the public. We kind of have our own "brand"!
At the RTW maker the staff is just typing in the measurements we provide, using a size closest to those measurements. We use a little program that helps us determine that size, but I think that there are some flaws in it. We have try-on coats, that we use to have a sort of first fitting (see the picture with the set of grey sleeveless coats).
The other maker has a set of basic patterns which differ from the RTW patterns.
I truly believe that any staff dealing with pattern manipulation should have an advanced knowledge of pattern making, so they'd know what to do, how and where and why. And that is apparently not the case. the belly sizes have already a stronger slope, so there is already a little triangular shape where the shoulder meets the armhole, which becomes even stronger/ bigger when the customer has very sloping shoulders. The armhole has no continuous shape and it's hard to set the sleeve back in without altering the shape of front and back.

Here is an example:

Posted Image

Add a pointy and short sleeve crown to that and you get an unsightly and even uncomfortable result. Trained staff should correct that.

Posted Image

For comparison: Original sleeve and a sort of muslin sleeve I drafted to replace the old one.

Posted Image

Most of the returns are not based on falsely taken measurements or a misinterpretation of the posture, but on bad workmanship, which is terribly annoying. And I find it very hard to determine the reason for a bad fit, if you have to consider thousands of other causes. Would you say the person who did this was well trained? I'm still "amazed" that the maker of this one thought he'd get away with it.

Posted Image

About my direct superior: She may be a terrific dressmaker, but I doubt that she has a deeper understanding of fitting men's bodies. And because of her "believe" she is not likely to object to her male superiors. Plus she's not fond of going the extra mile when it comes to hard work.
I kind of have a problem with folks who think they know everything and won't admit that they make mistakes, too.
I have a very nice and knowledgeable polish colleague who really knows his profession but he would never embarrass or ridicule you in front of others, instead he helps you out where- and whenever he can. I learned an awful lot from him.

I used the Rundschau system to draft sleeves, but following the basic instructions they are likely to turn out a bit too wide:

Posted Image

Posted Image

I find a nice, well fitting armhole and matching sleeve very important for the overall look, impression and comfort of a garment. If you get it right, the garment will look good, if you mess it up... well, you all know. :bye: :bye: customer!
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#28 greger

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 06:18 AM

I think in the USA some m2m companies cut there own cloth and send to be manufactured. That is, it seems, would solve a lot of your problems, since you seem to be relying upon manufactures to pick and manipulate the patterns.

I still don't understand how the arm holes get so deep. I suppose the rtws think because they are easier to get into that they are better, when really movement is better after the jacket is on.

#29 Terri

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 07:05 AM

so there is already a little triangular shape where the shoulder meets the armhole, which becomes even stronger/ bigger when the customer has very sloping shoulders. The armhole has no continuous shape and it's hard to set the sleeve back in without altering the shape of front and back.


I have to say that this is a problem with the pattern, or the software that makes the pattern or the pattern draft but ultimately with the person who is the patternmaker. That is a beginner's or untrained patternmaker's mistake. Every place where two seams join must result in a smooth continuous line whether it is a hem or armhole, or shoulder. That triangular shape shouldn't be there in any size of jacket.
I'd love to see the patterns for these jackets.
T

#30 Schneidergott

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 09:21 AM

I'd love to see the patterns for these jackets.


Me too. We have little control over where the order is sent to, since that is done by another department of our company. We can note down a recommendation, but that is all.
I'd like to compare the patterns of both makers to see the differences, so I could adjust my measurements. I suspect that in the RTW patterns they have different shoulder slopes and neck holes for regular, stout and belly size patterns. For what reason, I don't know.
So if you try on a (german) size 28 and you can't get the measurements into the equivalent chart of that special program you might end up with a belly size 55 or 57, which have a lower shoulder already. So if you keep the originally measured shoulder slope, the coat won't fit at the neck, plus the front parts will be longer than that of size 28 etc. etc. etc...

I think in the USA some m2m companies cut there own cloth and send to be manufactured. That is, it seems, would solve a lot of your problems, since you seem to be relying upon manufactures to pick and manipulate the patterns.


That is hardly possible. You see, we sell quite a lot of suits and most of them are fine. Or maybe they're not and the customers don't care, pay the price and never come back to order another suit.
I don't have exact figures, but it's up to at least 2500 orders in a year, so preparing the pattern ourselves, though desirable, is not possible. None of us has that CAD pattern making training, and let's face it, I'd be the only one who is still young enough to learn and then do it.
I wouldn't mind doing that as it would provide much more control of the final product. But to make a really good pattern I would have to see the customer, either in real life or on pictures. But I'm pretty sure that no one is going to ask me to do it.

About why the armholes are so low: I can only speculate. I wore a really nice coat at my school graduation ceremony (RTW) and it was really tight, but quite comfortable although it had high armholes and slim cut sleeves. That was in '83. Then came the phase when garments started to have really wide shoulders, so they had to make the armholes bigger, too. Then came Armani with his loose and soft garments.
Nowadays we have the tight stuff again, but they kept the deep armholes. Maybe it's like how jefferyd said: Many men don't want to feel the armhole, mostly because they don't know any better. Plus many men are absolutely careless when it comes to their clothes. As tailors, we likely catch ourselves looking at other guy's suits and figure out the defects, at least I do. I always notice that the majority of suits have a really bad fit, wide shoulders, neck folds, wrinkles, way too long sleeves and trouser legs and so on. Even those men who make enough money to go for bespoke don't seem to care, neither do the ladies.
So, why bother to make a nice (RTW, MTM or bespoke) garment, if you can make a cheap, lousy one and sell it anyway. It's the label that matters, not the actual quality.
How many decent manufacturers of men's suits do you know?
Here in Germany there are maybe 2 or 3 companies left, with SCABAL and REGENT representing the highest level. http://www.tagesspie...;art893,2435145 (german text).

Their website: http://www.regent-ta...e/en/index.html pity they don't show more of their stuff...
http://www.scabal.de/
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#31 jcsprowls

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 09:38 AM

can you explain what you mean by the armhole circumference plus ease. The ease is confusing me.


If the nude armhole measurement is 19 1/2", then I want the jacket armhole to finish around 20 1/2" - bigger if I'm using firm canvas and thick shoulder pads.
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#32 greger

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 11:49 AM

Schneidergott, In the old days of MTM they had hardware patterns not software patterns. Grab the correct cards with the closes numbers, make the adjustments for shoulder slope, erect, stooped, forward shoulder, swayback, etc., styles and whatever. With the cards good armholes have already been established instead of a goofy software program. Maybe the cloth is cut by computer program and laser? Sometimes the old methods really are better than the new.

As far as armhole depth, as far as rtw, shallower would be better and the customers wouldn't even notice as long as it is easy to get into. Maybe the deep armhole fad will be gone soon.

#33 Schneidergott

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 05:29 PM

If the nude armhole measurement is 19 1/2", then I want the jacket armhole to finish around 20 1/2" - bigger if I'm using firm canvas and thick shoulder pads.


So you are taking that "nude" measurement for a bespoke coat only? Or is there a chart that has a sort of calculation incorporated?
The chart I posted would be fine if those measurements would be final (27cm scye depth for a german size 60 is pretty small). But it seems that some day in the last 50 years they had been changed to 30cm or more.
One thing freaked me out once: I needed to cut new sleeves, but we didn't have the fabric. So I had to take a returned coat and take the sleeves out. The coat I had to alter was pretty small, the coat I took the sleeves from was really huge, but: The sleeves fitted beautifully into the small coat. So I guess part of all those deep armhole thing might be cost reduction. Who knows?

@greger: About the old methods: That is where the fun starts. The RTW maker is using a software, while the other one is using cardboard patterns. In either way, given the staff is well trained, the result should be the same or at least pretty similar, but it's not. Apparently those folks who do it manually don't know that much about correct pattern manipulation and don't care to change that. The owner has some skills, but I'm afraid the others don't.
I had cases where they just made the side part larger, therefore bigger sleeve, edgy flat armhole, etc.etc.etc...
I don't envy them. You don't get rich by doing MTM for us, so that's why they cannot spend hours on pattern manipulation. But even if somebody does provide a good pattern, the people sewing the suits, (especially one or two, whose name I don't know) can ruin everything. See the picture of the check coat where the sleeve is just beautifully set in. Not that there weren't any notches to match the parts: He just didn't care. I guess that most of his work is coming back for "improvements". In many cases it's a badly set in sleeve and a stretched armhole. When you correct the armhole (giving it a nice shape and so on) you won't get the sleeve back in. I don't know where those guys were trained.

But frankly it all comes down to a lack of communication. We should tell them what we want, not just accept what we get. But again, my superiors don't care, because that would mean a lot of work. Pity.
I'm sure we could sell even more suits if they were better in fit and make. Some of my colleagues claim, that if all the suits would fit we'd be out of work. Maybe true, but honestly, that will never happen. No matter how good the suit is, there will always be someone, usually female, to complain about it. So there will be lots of work left.
And I'd rather do some minor fine tuning than taking the whole damn coat apart and /or cut a new sleeve.
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#34 Schneidergott

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 05:53 PM

Now here is something funny:



It's by Loriot, a famous german comedian. In this sketch from the 70's he wants to buy a new suit. All those who don't understand German: The salesman is talking a lot of rubbish. The light coloured checked coat is called "scottish worsted mohair with an english selvedge".
Anyway, look at the trim cut and the neat armholes and how the guys can move in them.


"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#35 jcsprowls

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 12:54 AM

So you are taking that "nude" measurement for a bespoke coat only? Or is there a chart that has a sort of calculation incorporated? The chart I posted would be fine if those measurements would be final (27cm scye depth for a german size 60 is pretty small). But it seems that some day in the last 50 years they had been changed to 30cm or more.


I take it for RTW and custom-make. It's just part of my process. At one time, I used to measure the finished armhole on the body by asking the customer to tell me when the tape felt comfortable. The problem became that where I set the base of the scye was in conflict with what the customer decided was 'comfortable'. And, it resulted in a distorted armhole shape.

I decided to deal with the scye shape/depth during the first (read: body) fitting. I calculate the scye opening I want, then let the fitting model or customer tell me where they want it. Since the thickness of the materials used has an affect on fit/feel, I decided to stop guessing. Once I fit the body, I can draw in the desired seamline and update the pattern for documentation/production purposes.

The great thing about working RTW is that brands select a specific fitting model upon which to build their styles. So, once the original fit is determined, you can make copies of proven styles/fits as the basis of new styles. In custom-make, customers tend to bounce around with styling, so it takes longer to accumulate enough pattern library (read: documentation) on that specific customer.

About the old methods: That is where the fun starts. The RTW maker is using a software, while the other one is using cardboard patterns. In either way, given the staff is well trained, the result should be the same or at least pretty similar, but it's not. Apparently those folks who do it manually don't know that much about correct pattern manipulation and don't care to change that.


Whether you're using $20 worth of oaktag and a $5 grading ruler or a $13K parametric CAD system, it comes down to operator skill. Still, there is - I think - a major flaw in the operating model. I don't know any way to be effective without being able to fit the customer.
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#36 Schneidergott

Schneidergott

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 04:05 AM

Well, we do use these for a first fitting (well, a kind of):



Sizes range from 48 to 62 (normal), 24 to 31 (stout) and 49 to 63 (belly). The smaller sizes do not really cause much trouble, it's the bigger ones where the problems start. I guess that there is a little flaw in the shape of the armhole of the starting size for grading, and that this flaw gets really bad in the bigger sizes. Like making a copy of a copy of a copy. We have similar possibilities to "correct" the pattern beforehand like shown in the list on jefferyd's blog, but that can be a tricky thing. I always make the armhole a bit higher. Sometimes I have to enlarge the armhole diameter a bit when the customer has strong arms, but than can ruin the whole cut. Reason for that is that the side part is just made wider at the top moving the seam further to the back. That is creating a stronger waist suppression in the side seam, which is almost never desirable.
Sometimes we have customers that are so "unique" in shape and size that I have to take special measurements, one of them is around the customers natural scye plus a few others to get the shape and balance right.
A while back I had a really crooked customer. Very nice younger man (you have to know that the majority of our customers is aged 60 and way above) with a distorted spine. His chin was in a line with his right knee, left hip kicking out and the left shoulder about 3-4cm higher than the right one.
Usually I would have told him that we cannot work for him, but unfortunately he had spoken to my superior earlier and for what reason ever she had kind of promised him that our suit would fit much better than the one he was wearing. Why she did that I can only guess, I assume she found him attractive and wanted to show off. Anyway, there I stood, putting on one of our trial coats, noting down everything I could to get an image of his body. I wrote an extra note with all the necessary measurements, like left side bigger, right side smaller, shoulder slope, you name it.
Because of this uniqueness I could not hand the order to the RTW company, because they can only work symmetrical.
One would think that adjusting a pattern size 28 is easy, just add some cm here and take the same amount away there.
I was on vacation when it came back and a colleague did the fitting. I looked at the very small changes she marked and put the coat on and I instantly knew that they could not be right. The coat was absolutely symmetrical at the shoulders and when looking at the coat it became clear why: The person who manipulated the pattern made several mistakes.
1) He/ she marked the shoulder drop on the right, but instead of adding the raise of the left shoulder to the regular slope, he/ she added it to the one already marked. So all I got was a shoulder slope at the right back, the left side remained original.
2) he/ she confused the front parts. She put the left front on the right side part and back and vice versa. Result was two different shoulder seams, one further to the back, the other one to the front, so in the end the shoulders were even.
3) The armhole was gigantic, despite the fact that I asked it to be 2 or 3 cm higher.
4) The sleeves were set in badly because of the uneven shoulder points.

All in all a huge alteration I had to do. New shape of the armhole and of the back and side part, letting out shoulders and cut a new sleeve.
The only thing I could not correct was the really deep armhole, which made the coat very uncomfortable.
Long story short, the customer didn't take it, we spent like 20+ hours on the alterations and lost money and a customer.
I'm still sure that my measurements came pretty close to what was necessary and I keep his measurements. I'm actually tempted to make a coat for him using them as a basis. But I'm afraid that could cause a lot of trouble.
I already suggested that we had a look at the patterns from both makers to see the differences. Sadly that was blocked by my superior.
So we are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. The RTW maker has a way better finish, but has it's own flaws in the production process. The other one can be more individual, but has major flaws in the cutting and making.
Maybe I just need another job... Praying.gif
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