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Help with fitting men's shirt muslin


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#37 posaune

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 07:39 AM

First you should take care of your balance problem. See the folds in back and those running from side seam to the bust point. Your back is still too lange against front patterm.

f you have a figure like yours you must give the hip and bak waist more width and the back must be shorter. Look for altering for sway backs. here is something sensible.

https://patternsciss...ns-my-analysis/

lg

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#38 peterle

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 10:12 PM

I second Posaune´s opinion:

So drop your fronts another 0,75-1cm.(this will also drop the front neckhole. We will adress this when resewing the shirt).

 

For the sway back Posaunes link could be a solution. But I think this alteration will probably not add enough width at the hip for your posture, because the seams gape quite a lot in the undone area.

Best is to try and just pin away that fishform tuck across the back along the waistline. This will give us an impression.

Analysing the pattern draft instructions I recognised point 17 (waistline) is not found by a proportional measure. So please remeasure wether your waistline is at the right place: In your paper pattern draw a horizontal line through 17. The crossing point with the center back line should have a distance to point 0 of 1/4 of your body hight plus 3/4" (= 3SAs, one for the neckhole and two for the yoke seam).


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#39 benjaminh

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 03:00 AM

I second Posaune´s opinion:

So drop your fronts another 0,75-1cm.(this will also drop the front neckhole. We will adress this when resewing the shirt).

 

For the sway back Posaunes link could be a solution. But I think this alteration will probably not add enough width at the hip for your posture, because the seams gape quite a lot in the undone area.

Best is to try and just pin away that fishform tuck across the back along the waistline. This will give us an impression.

Analysing the pattern draft instructions I recognised point 17 (waistline) is not found by a proportional measure. So please remeasure wether your waistline is at the right place: In your paper pattern draw a horizontal line through 17. The crossing point with the center back line should have a distance to point 0 of 1/4 of your body hight plus 3/4" (= 3SAs, one for the neckhole and two for the yoke seam).

 

I just finished dropping the fronts 1cm and pinning a tuck across the waistline; I'll post pictures later on.

 

Regarding the waistline: it seems (based on the theory of waistline placement you posted), that the draft is made for a person 5' 11-1/2" (182cm) tall, whereas I am 6' 3-1/4" (191cm). That means that the waistline shown on the draft should be shifted down 15/16" (2.4cm). 



#40 benjaminh

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 03:44 AM

1cm tuck across waist line, fronts dropped 1cm:

 

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#41 peterle

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 04:58 AM

Yes, The waistline should be shifted down a bit.

 

Another pattern instruction is the distance 0 to point 1. This is just calculated from the chest measure, what could make the armhole depth too short for tall and slim people like you.

A better calculation regarding also the body hight is: 1/8 chest measurement + 1/16 body + 1,5cm + in this case 3SAs. Please control in the paper pattern, wether You have this distance between 0 and1.

 

I can´t say anything about the fit after the last alteration, because You pulled down the back too much. When fitting always be sure the center back neck point is at the 7th vertebra (wich is the protruding one)


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#42 benjaminh

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 03:51 PM



Yes, The waistline should be shifted down a bit.

 

Another pattern instruction is the distance 0 to point 1. This is just calculated from the chest measure, what could make the armhole depth too short for tall and slim people like you.

A better calculation regarding also the body hight is: 1/8 chest measurement + 1/16 body + 1,5cm + in this case 3SAs. Please control in the paper pattern, wether You have this distance between 0 and1.

 

I can definitely tell that the armscye is too shallow, both from feel and the fact that the shallow armscye is causing diagonal folds. I'll address this next time I work on this muslin.

 

 


I can´t say anything about the fit after the last alteration, because You pulled down the back too much. When fitting always be sure the center back neck point is at the 7th vertebra (wich is the protruding one)

 

Thanks for pointing this out, I didn't notice that when I initially did the fitting. Here some pictures with the back hopefully sitting right:

 

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Thanks a lot for helping me with this fitting; I really appreciate the assistance. I'm afraid I'd be rather lost without this forum.


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#43 greger

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 04:17 PM

Looking at your latest pictures you are clearly not a sway back from the tailors world. What other sewers say doesn't apply here. A sway back with his back to the wall his seat doesn't touch and can be several inches away. With you it is the opposite. But you are not 'stooped', either.

 

Coats, vest, shirts and capes with a yoke can be shortened by moving the back up on the side seams. The armholes are trimmed and the the excess sewn across the yoke is cut off when the fitting is done. It pays to have inlays. 


Edited by greger, 25 February 2018 - 04:28 PM.


#44 posaune

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 09:28 PM

sorry, Greger, I understood the expression swy back not right. Maybe better to say he has a bad posture, please, look at #40 (first pic).That pic was done with the relaxed body.

The spine falls into  front (waist level), the hip rotates to hold the torso up and the neck goes into front too. So he needs shortening at the waist in back and a dart at the shoulder seam and some length first 1/3 upper part of the spine (Which is what we see in the shirt made for him) and more width below the waist because of his protruding rear.

Have you tested how deep your armhole is? You should have at least 1 - 1.5 finger free space under your armpit. Otherwise the curves are sitting too high

lg

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#45 peterle

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 09:52 PM

We all share the opinion that we have a posture with a seat protruding the drop line of the shoulder blades. Also the linked article deals with such a posture. Indeed "sway back" is not the right term for this posture. Greger, how would you call it?

 

Benjaminh please check the armhole depth. It´doesn´t make sense to fiddle around with balance when the armholes are´nt deep enough. It would be of great help when you mark this new chest line with a coloured thread in the shirt.

 

To get a measurment for the needed additional width at the hip please measure horizontally from point 19A to point 19A across your buttwearing the shirt. Be sure you dont pull back the fronts, they should hang vertically in the center front and not be pulled back below the belly as in post 30.


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#46 benjaminh

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 04:14 AM

Another pattern instruction is the distance 0 to point 1. This is just calculated from the chest measure, what could make the armhole depth too short for tall and slim people like you.

A better calculation regarding also the body hight is: 1/8 chest measurement + 1/16 body + 1,5cm + in this case 3SAs. Please control in the paper pattern, wether You have this distance between 0 and1.

 

Regarding this: the draft seems to be 1/2 too small, but as well, I have 3/8" seam allowances in the armscye currently; should I have those when fitting a body muslin, or could they be throwing things off?



#47 peterle

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 08:25 PM

The pattern yet includes a seam allowance of 1/4 inch, so the real sewing lines are 1/4 inch inwards from the pattern lines. Did you add another 3/8 inch?

Combined with the 1/2 inch all this would sum up to 1 1/8 inch at the bottom of the scye, wich will defenitely throw things off. Think the bottom of the armhole as a half circle of about 6" diameter. Adding that much fabric will end in a circle 2 1/4 inch ! smaller.

 

For fitting You shouldn´t have more fabric at the lower armhole than you need for your chosen armhole seam construction method. I like to use a french seam , so I need two times the SA wichr esults in a 1,5cm allowance to the final sewing line. Towards the top of the armhole and the yoke, you can add wider inlays to have some wiggle room.


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#48 benjaminh

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 12:59 AM

The pattern yet includes a seam allowance of 1/4 inch, so the real sewing lines are 1/4 inch inwards from the pattern lines. Did you add another 3/8 inch?

Combined with the 1/2 inch all this would sum up to 1 1/8 inch at the bottom of the scye, wich will defenitely throw things off. Think the bottom of the armhole as a half circle of about 6" diameter. Adding that much fabric will end in a circle 2 1/4 inch ! smaller.

 

I only have added 1/8" to the pattern, resulting in the 3/8" seam allowance I use for armscye seams.

 

 

For fitting You shouldn´t have more fabric at the lower armhole than you need for your chosen armhole seam construction method

 

Thanks for clarifying this. I just wasn't sure if the seam allowance should be there when fitting a sleeveless body, but you answered that question.



#49 benjaminh

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 02:52 PM

Here's some pictures from tonight's fitting, after deepening the armscye by 1/2":

 

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My analysis: I think the front is pretty good, the one diagonal fold on the lower left hand side (wearer's, not viewer's) is just from the open side seam I believe. However, I think that the right side shoulder area is too long (yoke and body), this is more noticeable from the back view (the extra fabric visible). Now that I take another look at that, it the upper body may need to be reduced on the right as well. The armscye depth is difficult to judge on the right side due to the above issues, but due to the mild wrinkling on the left armscye, I would say that that needs to be deepened further. As well, I think the shoulder slope needs to be increased. I find this a bit odd, as at first it had the opposite problem, but now there is clearly extra fabric at the ends of the yoke. This excess disappears if the yoke is lifted a 1/2" to 1", so I presume the shoulder slope needs to be increased.

 

The above is just my naive attempt at identifying the fit problems and their solutions; I may be way off track, let me know.



#50 greger

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 07:52 PM

' right term for this posture.'

 

Don't know. Books are packed away for moving, so I can't look now. And they only show a few types of posture. 

 

It is interesting to see the different methods of fitting garments. As far as pin fittings goes there are certainly different opinions about how to do that. Hostek said, "Never slide the back up or down except for drastic changes." Others use it a lot. And there are different ways of pinning, not to mention reasons. One method of pinning is an exact guide to sewing, which makes sewing quick and easy. Correcting the pattern or making a new one from the fitted garment. The thread marks help a lot with correcting the pattern. Poulin says to take some paste for adding paper where needed. Of course the needle point tracing wheel comes in handy to. Waxed paper (for cooking) is useful for smaller tracing. Inlays save so much time. Like the front neck opening can have inlay lightly pressed out of the way (over a tailors ham). If the front is dropped the inlay can be pressed open and used. It looks better than a sewn on piece. Over the internet it is hard to explain some things. Yours and posaune's method is more than fine. Looking at pictures leaves much to be desired. I think what you and posaune call hips swayed forward is sway back. The pinned fitting and then correcting the pattern is a different way of learning how to draw better patterns because the needed changes can then be seen. This method uses the eyes for drawing the pattern instead of depending on the tape measure. It is an acquired skill. Of course beginners can't do this. But, I don't know the German/Austrian methods either. Switzerland is close by and same language, are they similar in methods? 

 

#51 greger

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 08:04 PM

The shoulder slope is a different angle from the neck. The neck seam allowance is not to be sewn into. It is used for the collar stand. If you continue the shoulder seam into the neck seam allowance the fit is amiss. 



#52 peterle

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 10:38 PM

Although your observations are right Benjamin, don´t remove anything at the moment. In the last picture set the shirt looks very twisted. Most the back, wich seems to be too tight at the left and too wide on the right.  But you also can see the center back ( the ironed fold) is not falling straight. Never noticed this in the other pics, so I think you just wear it twisted. Your shoulders arn´t stable as well. Somtimes your right sholder is lower, sometimes your left, so it doesn´t make sense to do a dropped shoulder alteration.

 

To sort out wether it is fit or the wearing, please fold your left front exactly at the center front line ( the line where the buttonholes are positioned) and baste it. Also mark the center front on the other front piece. When fitting, pin the fold exactly on the marking, and make it hang  strictly vertical in the center of your body. also make sure the center back is running straight and vertical and the back neck point is at the right place.

As Greger wrote let the shoulder seams end 1/4 inch before the neck line, thus leaving the SA unsewn.

 

A profile pic of both sides is also useful to recognize irregularities, as is a marked chest line on the shirt.


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#53 benjaminh

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 01:09 AM

Thanks for all your help; I'll make the suggested fixes and repost pictures... 


Edited by benjaminh, 28 February 2018 - 01:16 AM.


#54 benjaminh

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 01:37 PM

Hopefully these photos are better; it's certainly an added challenge fitting one's own clothes. 

 

The black line across the front and back indicate the chest line; the left front is folded over on the center line and basted in place.

 

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