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Shirt cutting with side body - opinions?


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#1 R.m.Bakker

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 01:04 PM

Lately when cutting shirts I've been lamenting the fact that as when you're cutting shirts you have to deal with just 2 seams and darts to get a proper shape. More and more customers want shirts to fit exactly the way a coat fits - cleanly - and cut very much to the bone. To be honest, most shirt drafts are just not up to the task in that regard. It's supposed to be a rather drapey, loose fitting garment.

 

Besides, there's only so much space you can take out with a single side seam, and only so much at the back with darts. I'm also starting to make weirder and weirder looking drafts as the years go by it seems, just to eek out a little bit of a better fit here and there.

 

The other day I had this bodybuilder body type with a chest sitting at 110 and a waist of 92. that's a 18cm drop. Proper usage of diameter and placing of darts gets you a long way - but in the end I turned to actually making a side body in the shirt and combine it with darts, much the same way you would cut a coat.

 

Funny thing is, I always was under the impression that customers would react unfavourably against the usage of any seams other than the side seam (darts was a thing a few years ago that was frowned upon among some customers). Lately, they just want it to fit, and they're like, look, you're the tailor, and I don't mind having a few extra seams here and there (the sidebody is hidden quite well anyway and to be quite honest makes for an interesting looking garment).

 

I've even been contemplating making a 2-piece sleeve on the guy's shirt, which I will try next fitting, so again, very much like a coat. The reason is that his biceps is humongous and I am limited in how tall I can make the sleevecap (the sleeve gets tighter the higher the sleevecap is), but not making the sleevecap high enough gives me the creeps because of the fugly draglines that appear.

 

Is this the coatmaker in me trying to take shirts too far or is this a natural way for a bespoke tailor to deal with changing demands from customers? 

 

To my fellow tailors, have you done this, and what are your thoughts on this?


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#2 fronno

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 06:19 PM

Hello Ruben,

 

Yes, I have done this as well. A couple of friends of me are build like that and I have made their shirts with a side panel, because I was not able to create a nice shirt with a drop between 18 and even one with a drop of 24 cm. The two part sleeve for the same reasons as you are mentioning.

And for their leisure time I made a couple of shirts with an other colour as a side panel and one wanted one with pipings in the seam. It was not a big issue for them, the contrary.

 

Kind regards,

François


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#3 Martin Stall

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 06:57 PM

It's the only type of shirt that one of my customers wants (the only customer I still make for): a shirt that looks like a jacket. So I have a pattern for him with sidebody, and a regular two part coat sleeve (but with barely any ease in the crown).

 

He just wants it for the look though, not for close fit, so it's got normal amounts of ease across chest and waist.


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Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

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#4 posaune

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 08:51 PM

I have done it not only with a side body, I do princess seams - shoulder and -armholes, too.
Because we have "Trachthemden" the styles are known. No problem.
lg
posaune
The two piece sleeve, I think you could do it. I found recently you get much more biceps in with a high cap
and a small armhole - but I would not like to iron the shirt.

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Edited by posaune, 28 November 2015 - 08:54 PM.

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#5 shirtmaven

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 12:53 AM

this style was very popular in  the 70's.

I was a bit to chubby at the time for this style!

 

I made something like this about 10 years ago, for a failed shirt line.

it only had the side bodyin front and it was cut on the bias.

this was as much for show as it was for shape.

 

Thomas Pink has a shirt that has a single side body.

other then being poorly sewn, it really does not have mush more taper then a regular slim fitting shirt.

 

I have  also added a front dart once or twice.

not down the front as you would for a woman, but closer to  the side seam.

this was used for a customer who was constantly obsessing on excess fabric at the waist line.

 

For some reason, I have numerous customers who want to eliminate the slight fullness at the side seam at the pant line.

of course the pants have a rather low rise as well.

any suggestions on shaping?

i find that making the hips too tight, causes the shirt to ride up and out.


Edited by shirtmaven, 29 November 2015 - 12:56 AM.

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#6 greger

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 09:36 AM

Whatever you do be open minded. What would tailors 500 years ago say about tailoring today? Would they be shocked at what tailors make today? 50 years ago the way middle-aged men talked about clothes do middle-aged men today talk that way now? The way of clothes is evolving and tailors need to keep up with the changes in customers thoughts. That is how 500 years of change happened. When it comes to rules they don't last forever and customers can belong to several different groups of rules (don't stub your toe over these things). Customers can come up with unusual ideas that sometimes become popular, which can bring you lots of new customers.

One time at church, granddad must have made a suit for someone, and he asked the guy if everything was ok, or if he wanted to change anything, and to come back three-four months later for any adjustments that may need to be made. The lesson is that it is the customers satisfaction that matters the most. Clothes and reasons are always changing, and customers don't always tell their reasons. Some customers keep their reasons to themselves, being they get laught at enough, and they want to enjoy the reason for their clothes. Who are we to judge. Granddad started tailoring when frock coats were the business suit. The lounge is no frock. The tailors back then freely changed with the times as we should today. Be open minded.
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#7 R.m.Bakker

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 04:33 PM

Great, great point greger. Yeah that's the whole point to begin with :) I was more like why the hell do we cut shirts with a pair of side seams and back darts and a one-piece sleeve? I felt trapped in my own dogma so to say, combined with the fact that I thought customers would not respond to it enthusiastically  It's just the way it's been taught (or the way I taught myself), and the way it's been for a while. Drafting the side body the other day was great, I felt much more in control of the fit.

 

Great opinions and views here guys thanks.


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#8 posaune

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 10:36 PM

Shirtmaven
with ladies I do it this way. Maybe it is a solution for the guys,too.
It prevent the treaded slanted folds it gives a nice silhouette and let the width at hip if you want it.
You do it in front (side) and back (side) not more than 2 cm each besides the dart.
lg
posaune

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#9 greger

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 01:20 PM

Alexander Kabbaz, did he say that he makes two piece sleeves, maybe, always?

The mtoc has a two piece sleeve for bibed shirts, this is clear back in 1949.

Look up W. D. F. Vincent at http://costumes.org/Part 11 has some shirts in it.
So much stuff has been forgotten, sometimes a new spin from the past is welcomed back for a year or two. If nothing else, an eye opener about change and the relaxed attitude of the tailors about these changes. Which brings up another thought- clothes have attitude, from subtle to very loud. Whatever keeps your business going. Some tailors had two three doors to keep the kinds of customers separate.
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#10 dpcoffin

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 08:08 AM

It's not uncommon these days for hi-action fitted (equestrian and combat) shirts to have not only fitted side panels, but for the panels to be knit, i.e., stretchy or even made from mesh, and to extend to the sleeve underarms as well. I'd guess that this might suit very fitted shirts for the heavily-muscled, too. Here's an image grabbed from my recent book on shirt design:

V_C2015-12-15_02-04-51_PM.png?dl=1

 

Also, I've got (or had) several lovely voile dress shirts with beautifully flat-felled princess seams both front and back, from the 70s, I'd guess.


Edited by dpcoffin, 16 December 2015 - 08:13 AM.

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#11 greger

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 10:59 AM

...panels to be knit, i.e., stretchy or even made from mesh, and to extend to the sleeve underarms...

Are these showing up in the finer shirts? Never been to white or black tie events, but a mesh, where it is never seen, would be much cooler. The open shoulder gowns that women wear to these events is certainly cooler than the over dressed men. Seems like the men would get too hot while dancing and would welcome a cooler shirt.

Edited by greger, 16 December 2015 - 11:01 AM.


#12 dpcoffin

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 11:14 AM

...panels to be knit, i.e., stretchy or even made from mesh, and to extend to the sleeve underarms...

Are these showing up in the finer shirts? Never been to white or black tie events, but a mesh, where it is never seen, would be much cooler. The open shoulder gowns that women wear to these events is certainly cooler than the over dressed men. Seems like the men would get too hot while dancing and would welcome a cooler shirt.

 

I doubt it. But older fine formal-dress shirts were already made with very thin fabric bodies, for the same reason which I also doubt is common today except in pure custom work. Another image from the same source:

V_C2015-12-15_05-10-12_PM.png?dl=1


Edited by dpcoffin, 16 December 2015 - 11:15 AM.

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#13 greger

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 02:58 PM

Hmmm, wonder if I've seen false fronted shirt methods. A bit different from the false fronted vest.

Do like the mesh idea. Mesh is certainly in other kinds of shirts and coats.




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