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One Size Fits Nobody: Seeking a Steady 4 or a 10


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#1 tailleuse

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 08:52 AM

This article has gotten a lot of play in the blogs I read. Read the comments as well if you have time. Some are highlighted.

http://www.nytimes.c...ner=rss&emc=rss

http://community.nyt...s/25sizing.html

The usual suspects have been blamed: Obesity, cheap Chinese factories (some of the comments are zenophobic and borderline racist and some readers think the machinists decide what to sew) and below, Western clothes! Although if you read the whole comment, the reader has a point. I would love to be able to get away with a sari or a toga.

"#. 165

Everyone wants a garment that fits their unique shape perfectly, but it's clear everyone is going to be completely dissatisfied (see the comments) as long as they insist on wearing Western clothes that have armholes, darts, waistbands, crotches, etc. There's no way that these clothes can be designed to fit the infinite curve possibilities of the bodies of real women. The problem is not sizing; the problem is the construction techniques of Western clothes! ..."

Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#2 eboli

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 04:46 PM

There's no way that these clothes can be designed to fit the infinite curve possibilities of the bodies of real women.


That is so true! I don't know why today's women are so self-deceptive to accept fashion instead of quality fabric, fit and workmanship. Poor quality is so common that it appears everyday in TV without anyone protesting.

Posted Image Posted Image

I wonder why all those media fashion stylists accept bad fit, thereby poisoning women's ability to judge. (Yes, of course they are payed by the industry.)

But may I add something heretical: Do bespoke tailors a really good job when it comes to fuller women? Photographic evidence welcome.
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#3 Nishijin

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 05:02 PM

But may I add something heretical: Do bespoke tailors a really good job when it comes to fuller women? Photographic evidence welcome.


Easy :
http://www.cutterand...topic=1217&st=0
http://www.paulgrassart.com

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#4 eboli

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 07:07 PM

Oh, no, not that boxy grandmother style again that adds another 15 kgs to your live weight!

Edited by eboli, 26 April 2011 - 07:14 PM.

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#5 greger

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 04:45 AM

Oh, no, not that boxy grandmother style again that adds another 15 kgs to your live weight!


That's funny. But, so true.

In high school there was this popular girl. She was fat and ugly (some overweight women are not ugly). She always paid attention to what people were thinking when she could. For example, If she notice you were starting to notice her body she instantly directed your thoughts to something else that was fun and funny. She knew how to take people away from unpleasant thinking to something desirable. Some of the art of tailoring is just that. I call them distractions, because some of these methods are. Another method is camouflage. Some textbooks on tailoring shows us how to make garments for good looking people, but nary a word about directing attention away from something to something else for those who are not so good looking. There are directions for cutting for overweight men of this sort to that sort, which helps, but your attention may still be drawn to the excess weight. Button stance, lapels to craftsmanship can all divert ones attention away from the weight and direct ones thoughts to the persons character. The same old lapel on every person is not always good tailoring because it is to much following basic directions and not considering the character to wear it and body shape. Some tailors make garments so boring that your mind is forced away from them to something else. Others, the visual quality is so high you can't help but notice. However it is done should direct ones attention away from the ungainly. And for those who are naturally good looking, sometimes you want to draw attention to their good looks. Tailors who follow pattern directions to much really are missing out. With pinned fittings one really take advantage of visual world. Different ways of pad-stitching lapels. And so on.
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#6 greger

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 05:08 AM

One thing for sure and that is you can not compare rtw with good bespoke when it comes to fit. Sometimes rtw has some good ideas in fashions. The very nature of rtw limits fit. Some types of cloth can only be sewn once which works great for some rtw fashions. Watching some of the older BW TV shows and you see normal non-fitting rtw. Some of the main characters maybe better dressed in what was modern attire. When there were thousands of tailors people got to see more of the better fit. Today we have less examples of well fitting, but I think rtw has gotten better in general fit compare 50 years ago. But they do have deeper armholes which makes clothes less mobile.
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#7 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 06:19 AM

This article has gotten a lot of play in the blogs I read. Read the comments as well if you have time. Some are highlighted.

http://www.nytimes.c...ner=rss&emc=rss

http://community.nyt...s/25sizing.html

The usual suspects have been blamed: Obesity, cheap Chinese factories (some of the comments are zenophobic and borderline racist and some readers think the machinists decide what to sew) and below, Western clothes! Although if you read the whole comment, the reader has a point. I would love to be able to get away with a sari or a toga.

"#. 165

Everyone wants a garment that fits their unique shape perfectly, but it's clear everyone is going to be completely dissatisfied (see the comments) as long as they insist on wearing Western clothes that have armholes, darts, waistbands, crotches, etc. There's no way that these clothes can be designed to fit the infinite curve possibilities of the bodies of real women. The problem is not sizing; the problem is the construction techniques of Western clothes! ..."




This is an age old problem. No two manufacturers will agree on a standard sizing. Those with a successful range will keep it to themselves. This is also made more complicated by the multiple retail and catalogue stores giving manufacturers their own size ranges and specification for bulk orders. In England, the British Standards Institute, give a minimum standard to work from, some manufacturers use this as the norm and complicate things further. Styles change and become either loose fitting or tight fitting, some re tailors will jump up one size for the loose fitting styles and maybe do the reverse for close fitting.

It would take a major measuring project world wide, to come up with a standardisation. Then you would have the problem of the Far Eastern populations, who are in a smaller and slimme category than people in the western world.

Maybe with the advent of computer databases in computer aided design things may become clearer.

But remember, the information that comes out of a computer is governed by the information input.

WYSIWYG!
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#8 ct3d

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 02:29 PM

Poor quality is so common that it appears everyday in TV without anyone protesting.

Posted Image


Agreed on Maischbergers suit. But please tell me what's wrong with Merkels'? I thought it doesn't look too bad for someone of her figure.
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#9 Sator

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 04:39 PM

If you ever see a re-run of a show by Lucille Ball take a good look at her clothes. You would have to go through countless DVDs to find anything resembling a misfit. She was hardly considered a goddess in her time either! She had a very real world figure, yet always looked stunning. I would not be surprised if a lot of it were bespoke. Actors of her generation sometimes threw prima donna tantrums and refused to wear RTW as being beneath their dignity.

#10 marie6176

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 07:11 PM

Agreed on Maischbergers suit. But please tell me what's wrong with Merkels'? I thought it doesn't look too bad for someone of her figure.

Ct3d, I quite agree with you. Though I think that Angela Merkel are often poorly fitted, particularly her sleeves, I don't see what's wrong with this white jacket.
Concerning, vanity sizes, do you know that Kathleen Falsanella has a blog only dealing the this so-called issue? FYI it's called The Myth of Vanity Sizing.
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#11 eboli

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 07:50 PM

But please tell me what's wrong with Merkels'? I thought it doesn't look too bad for someone of her figure.


You're right. I intended to show a real desaster, that is Maischberger's suit. Good heavens, she is a slim, graceful person. Why couldn't they find something more fitting in the ARD costume pool?

As for Merkel I would recommend a better bra so that the midriff can be seen, but for the conditions given that jacket is an very acceptable solution.

When thinking of rounder women first of all showbiz celebrities come into my mind. Unfortunately it is hard to find pictures of them wearing tailored clothes, because most of their pictures are taken at evening events, which means a lot of really good dressmaking, but no tailoring. Look for America Ferrera, Jennifer Hudson, Keely Shaye Smith,....
Tailored clothes would be the thing for politicians or managers. Any examples besides Merkel and the Queens Beatrix and Elizabeth?

Greger, your notices are very accurate. Both for guiding the vision away from physical weeknesses as well as for the superiority of a bespoke fit. Remember the video series on Savile Row that had been posted by Zoki last year? In one of them you could see a female customer receiving a perfect jacket. Very convincing!

Edited by eboli, 27 April 2011 - 11:30 PM.

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#12 I.Brackley

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 05:59 AM

Commenter #165 really rubbed me the wrong way. Even outside of her Occidentalism she spouts cobblers like this

They solved the problem of the perfect fit thousands of years ago in Greece, Rome, and India. Take a beautiful long bolt of cloth, wrap it gracefully around your body with a few simple moves and folds, and voila! A lovely, feminine garment that's totally flattering for women of any size and shape. It can be sexy, or subdued, or dignified, but it's always elegant, and it fits your individual body perfectly.


The problem has nothing to do with "construction techniques of Western clothes" but with the ease and efficiency that Pacific Rim slave labour can churn out schamatta.

Dress like an Bronze age Greek or a South Asian peasant if you will, neither of those folks wearing bolts of cloth ever had to get in and out of an automobile or hazard riding an escalator or even sit in an office chair with wheels (Arabian women find their abyas get caught and torn in these things all the time). They are also notable for having climates that trend to the warmer side of things. The Scottish Highlanders' great kilt being a notable exeption although it did not appear until the late 15th century at the earliest and the briefest exposure to early industrial working conditions saw it transformed into the tailored "small kilt".


Mentioning showbiz, I can't help but think of the overlap of this issue with a presistant internet-spread myth that just refuses to die; the oft-recited mantra that Marilyn Monroe was a size 9, 12, 6, 14, 19, whatever.
A sage blogger made the excellent point that Monroe's exant garments were created by her dressmakers for her alone. Marilyn did NOT buy off-the-peg. Even at some point in her life when she did it was assumed at the time that a ready-made garment would be altered either by the wearer in her home or by a local seamstress.
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#13 tailleuse

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 08:57 AM

Maybe with the advent of computer databases in computer aided design things may become clearer.

But remember, the information that comes out of a computer is governed by the information input.

WYSIWYG!



I've read that even the best computer pattern making programs still produce patterns that require tweaking. And, as you know, a computer can't tell you not to use a certain fabric or not to select a particular style because it won't flatter you. I think the idea of these scans is overly optimistic. This may change, but design students I've met have no interest in ventures that would create a customized block for a customer. Even as an idea.



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#14 tailleuse

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:02 AM

Dress like an Bronze age Greek or a South Asian peasant if you will, neither of those folks wearing bolts of cloth ever had to get in and out of an automobile ...


I suddenly have an image of Isadora Duncan in the Bugatti.

Mentioning showbiz, I can't help but think of the overlap of this issue with a presistant internet-spread myth that just refuses to die; the oft-recited mantra that Marilyn Monroe was a size 9, 12, 6, 14, 19, whatever.
A sage blogger made the excellent point that Monroe's exant garments were created by her dressmakers for her alone. Marilyn did NOT buy off-the-peg. Even at some point in her life when she did it was assumed at the time that a ready-made garment would be altered either by the wearer in her home or by a local seamstress.


I get tired of the debate over how supposedly large Marilyn Monroe was. It's idiotic and advanced by women who lie to themselves. Monroe had womanly curves, but she was not that big.

Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#15 tailleuse

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:07 AM

If you ever see a re-run of a show by Lucille Ball take a good look at her clothes. You would have to go through countless DVDs to find anything resembling a misfit. She was hardly considered a goddess in her time either! She had a very real world figure, yet always looked stunning. I would not be surprised if a lot of it were bespoke. Actors of her generation sometimes threw prima donna tantrums and refused to wear RTW as being beneath their dignity.



I'll look. I think of LB chiefly as a comedienne, but back her in her Hollywood days she was considered very beautiful. Sadly, they didn't know what to do with her.

Even as a somewhat older actress playing a housewife, I think she had a lot to work with. Posted Image

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#16 tailleuse

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:19 AM

Ct3d, I quite agree with you. Though I think that Angela Merkel are often poorly fitted, particularly her sleeves, I don't see what's wrong with this white jacket.
Concerning, vanity sizes, do you know that Kathleen Falsanella has a blog only dealing the this so-called issue? FYI it's called The Myth of Vanity Sizing.


I've been reading that blog. It's interesting.



Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#17 tailleuse

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:22 AM

Oh, no, not that boxy grandmother style again that adds another 15 kgs to your live weight!



I was expecting the link that nishijin posted, but frankly, I see so few stylish clothes for rounder ladies that I can't visualize anything beyond those examples.


Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)





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