Jump to content


Photo

Pattern adjustments for balance


  • Please log in to reply
41 replies to this topic

#1 thrawn235

thrawn235

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 30 August 2017 - 07:46 PM

I have a few questions regarding modifying ones pattern for balance.

 

I've found 2 (maybe 3) different ways of adjusting the balance.

 

 

This is the base pattern without any modifications:

Attached File  base.jpg   11.99KB   4 downloads

 

1: Inserting/removing strips

Attached File  strip.jpg   13.32KB   4 downloads

 

This I thought was the most straight forward option. Its easy to understand and it can be integrated directly in the pattern making process.

or so i thought...

Turns out I can only change balance by maybe 2cm. If i try to do more the whole back slides down, pulls the neckline down, and I'm basically where I started, not enough length in the front (and ruined neckline)

 

 

 

2: inserting/removing wedges

Attached File  wedge.jpg   12.17KB   2 downloads

 

After some help from this Forum (thanks again) I found this approach. It doesn't change the length of the armskye And i thought that would fix the problem with the neckline sliding down. And whilst it is more robust in that regard. (I can change Balance 3-4cm). It doesn't seem to fix the sliding issue entirely. If i do more, the back is sliding down again.

 

I thought eventually i would get creases from the bottom front, to the to back, but I've never been able to acheive that.

 

3:raising/lowering shoulderslopes

Attached File  shoulderslopes.jpg   12.74KB   3 downloads

 

This shouldn't really affect the balance since it doesn't change the center Back, nor the front neck point. In fact, im wondering if it has any effect at all.

Isnt it just shifting the seam around? (if you change the same amount front and back)

 

 

I hope somebody can help me to understand this better.

 

Am I correct so far?

Are there other methods that i have missed ?

Is it better to stick with one ore are they usually combined ?

when do you choose one over the other ?

 

and especially, what can I do to avoid the dreaded neckline sliding down ?

Could a a large chest, big shoulder blades, or very sloping shoulders cause it ?

 



#2 Schneiderfrei

Schneiderfrei

    Pro

  • Senior Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 861 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Adelaide, Australia
  • Interests:learning and imagination

Posted 31 August 2017 - 12:53 AM

Raising and lowering the side seam is a possibility.

 

You need to look at the figure to say what part of the draft the extra balance length should go.  An erect figure with well developed chest might need the length in the the region of the armhole.  Whereas, if the extra length is lower the wedge might be better placed at the chest seam.  Or spread it between the two.

 

Rather than a block out of/into the area of the armhole. a wedge that takes its radius from the centre of the armhole will add the length to the middleof the CF and less at the side seam which is likely more appropriate in most cases.

 

I also suggest that you look back in the threads there is a lot like this already covered.  Try the search terms "fitting a shirt".

 

Also the general terms discussed in King-Wilson The Art of Fitting are really quite universal for any garments and will not take too much consideration to apply the principles to shirts.

 

G


Shell made out of gold
Found on a beach picked up and you held so close


#3 thrawn235

thrawn235

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 31 August 2017 - 01:15 AM

I've read the fitting threads and I've read king wilsons book.

What is done there seemed quite logical to me, but whenever i try to apply it, my neckline drops in the back.

I'm either making a mistake somewhere, or my anatomy is somehow very problematic (erect figure, big chest, VERY sloped shoulders, 6cm balance difference)

I'm just trying to find something that i can do differently.



#4 posaune

posaune

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 950 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Germany

Posted 31 August 2017 - 02:49 AM

The shoulder slope this way done will do nothing for you. It is just shifting as you said.
The first methode messes too much with the armhole.
The wedges are the best way. Now for beginner not easy because it changes the CF rsp. CB.
It is not like a cooking recipe take this and that and voila.
We just have only pics and with no horizontal and vertical lines and not from the posture of the body.
You have sloping shoulder and the muscles there is go into neck - the bust is formed "gewoelbt" into front.
Normally when the back neck goes down - the back is to short and pulls the front down.
I do not know what happens when both are too short.
I would start with the last or before last muslin and do the front shorter. just pin out a fold in midarmhole height about 1 cm.
And look what it does.
lg
posaune

#5 A TAILOR

A TAILOR

    Apprentice

  • Professional
  • PipPip
  • 291 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:metro chicago

Posted 31 August 2017 - 02:39 PM

hi thrawa

Go to styleforum first and then.....

To understand this, try the search function. Ask for tailors tutorials. Scroll down to "balance explained".

There are answers to lots of questions.

 

Good luck and have fun.

Alex


Edited by A TAILOR, 01 September 2017 - 01:51 AM.

  • jeffrey2117 likes this

#6 thrawn235

thrawn235

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 01 September 2017 - 07:16 PM

Thanks you'all, i don't have the patterns from my previous attempts but i'll make a new one and try it again.

 

 

The one question i guess i'm still having in regards to this:

 

If i have an erect figure, 

obviously a standard pattern that doesn't take this in account will be too short in the front, and too long in the back. consequently i'll have diagonal creases (front top to bottom back), on the sides.

 

By lengthening the front and shortening the back, eventually everything should have the correct length and the correct balance. And the creases should disappear.

 

If i continue to lengthen the front, and overcompensate, shouldn't i get the opposite effect, diagonal creases from back top to front bottom?

In essence having the problems of a stooped figure on a erect one (due to this overcompensation)

 

Or, is it inevitable that the back neckline slides down, and this is the sign that i overcompensated ?


Edited by thrawn235, 01 September 2017 - 07:21 PM.


#7 posaune

posaune

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 950 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Germany

Posted 01 September 2017 - 10:41 PM

These folds can originate from your being erect.
They can derive from your slanted shoulder too or both of them or for wwhoknowsfromwhere.
Now let us find a way for you.
How I would proceed: If you have an erect figur (as we assume here!) you draw a pattern for a normal posture (take your Backlength
and calculate the front length - I hope you have someone who can measure your Rh and your Back width)
with all your circs. This is your template.
Now on a fresh piece of pattern plan the alterations.
For this you copy your template and you draft a horizontal line and a vertikal line on both template and alteration
at the same place. At the paper it should be longer so that you can see it when sliding the template.
Those are guide lines which help you to stay "on grain".
Start giving the front more length and shorten the back same amount. Maybe start with 1.5 cm.
This represents a balance about 3 cm. You shove your template along the vertical guide line 1.5 cm up.
Copy the neckhole there remove the template and connect to the (old) SP. Do it front up and down at back.

After this you must do the front wider in the bust and narrower in the back. Assume 1.5 cm (half pattern!that is much)
I would add 0.5 at the side and 0.5 at center front so the front neck hole will be larger.
Here you use the horizontal line as guid line.
Do not alter the armhole - make a new point 0.5 cm out slide your template to that point and rotate it a bit so it will meet the old SP..
At back I would take out at CB 0.5. Again mark it on your paper and use yor template to draw the forms.
After this I would cut a muslin. Draw all lines in and leave a generous s.a.. At the neckhole and armhole please 1 cm not more.
Take cheap fabric old bed sheets are ideal.
I hope it is understandable be it my english and all.
lg
posaune
  • Schneiderfrei likes this

#8 peterle

peterle

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 242 posts

Posted 01 September 2017 - 10:53 PM

Oh, it´s a shame you don´t have the pattern anymore. Your last attempt got so far...

I think your figure is not just erect. It is also very round in the chest area in combination with very slanted shoulders. That makes it quite complex.

 

With such a complex figure fitting oneself is very hard.

I highly recommend to make a personal dummy of gummed paper tape as shown in this video: https://www.youtube....h?v=bLT6vsfkkkI

 

So you literally can fit yourself.

 

 

When you do the muslin please add stay stitching along the neckhole line so the neckhole keeps it´s shape. Otherwise the muslin can stretch enormously and cause new fitting issues.


  • Schneiderfrei likes this

#9 thrawn235

thrawn235

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 02 September 2017 - 10:17 PM

I made a new pattern (i startet before reading your answer posaune, so i couldn't do exactly what you suggested. If my attempt doesnt work out. I'll make a new one, doing exactly what you said)

 

I remeassured myself:

Height = 176cm

Chest = 105cm

Waist = 99cm

Neck = 43cm

Seat = 112 cm

Back height (Rh) = 24

Back length (Rl) = 46

Front length(down to waist) = 60 (probably inaccurate)

Back width (Rb) = 19

Front width (Bb) = 21

Armscye width? (Ad) = N/A

 

Calculated (no ease):

Height = N/A

Chest = N/A

Waist = N/A

Neck = N/A

Seat = N/A

Back height (Rh) = 22.5

Back length (Rl) = 44

Front length(down to chestline) = 22

Back width (Rb) = 20

Front width (Bb) = 20

Armscye width? (Ad) = 13.5

 

 

Also, I took some pictures without the shirt, so you guys can see my posture:

Attached File  front-no_shirt.JPG   36.47KB   4 downloadsAttached File  side-no_shirt.JPG   27.57KB   2 downloadsAttached File  back-no_shirt.JPG   37.64KB   1 downloads


Edited by thrawn235, 03 September 2017 - 01:47 AM.


#10 thrawn235

thrawn235

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 02 September 2017 - 10:19 PM

Then i made a new pattern.

I used the measured Back width and Front width (19cm and 21cm) instead of the calculated 20 and 20.

I used the measured back height (24cm) and added 2cm extra (for the dropped shoulders)

I also dropped the shoulders by 3cm(front) and 1,5cm (back).

 

 

After that I modified the pattern like so:

Attached File  pattern.JPG   48.78KB   0 downloads



#11 thrawn235

thrawn235

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 02 September 2017 - 10:22 PM

The result of this was:

Attached File  front-no flash.JPG   32.07KB   0 downloadsAttached File  side-no_flash.JPG   29.85KB   0 downloadsAttached File  back-no_flash.JPG   30.21KB   0 downloads

 

I've also tried to take out a little dart on the chest:

Attached File  front-darts.JPG   31.95KB   0 downloadsAttached File  side-darts.JPG   25.17KB   0 downloads

 

The good thing is, the balance seems pretty good already (judging by the construction lines). And the neckline didn't slide down! :)

 

The bad thing is, that the back doesnt look so good. The back looked better in our other attempt before.

not sure if that is stil a balance problem, or maybe a problem with the back width, or seat circ (maybe i need more seat circ ?)


Edited by thrawn235, 02 September 2017 - 10:29 PM.


#12 posaune

posaune

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 950 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Germany

Posted 03 September 2017 - 01:12 AM

Thanks for the pics. It seems that your right side is hanging. Look at the back view in a t-shirt the fold there is a clear sign.
It indicates that your right side is shorter.
And you would be better off with a corpulent draft - because of your posture -
You press your belly before your bust and get a little sway back.
Your behind is not in line with the shoulder blades.

The fit of your shirt is all in all not bad.
You need more circ over the bum. Measure it that way:
Over the peak of the cheeks and tear the measure band in front up, so you get the peak of belly included.
You need the combined circ. But more in front.
By the way , no secret:
Ad = Bust circ/2 - Rb -Bb
I do not understand what you did at the shoulder? Is there a yoke?
You let in the 1.5 cm at center armhole and cut 1.5 cm away at back - but in front you cut 3 cm away.
(It would be better in my opinion to cut a normal shoulder seam and draw the yoke later in. It makes things clearer - maybe only for me).
What I see is a tightness at the front neck and the tightness over the high hip in back.
Now your hanging side includes the neck in my opinion. The fabric rises here higher up then at left.
So clip the seam allowances first at the right side neck that the fabric can settle down.
If it does not level open the first needle and see how much the front opens.
After this find a buddy who pins the shoulder seams. He should with his hands smooth out the fabric into and from armhole up so you will not have a bust dart..
This will relaese the fabric a bit.
For the sway back you must pin out a wedge at waist center back.
(If you rotate with the pattern find at the spread line the rotating point at 2/3 of back width)The center goes down and side seam up.
Thta is all much to much for one. Make it one alterations after the other and look every time how it reacts.
luck
lg
posaune

#13 thrawn235

thrawn235

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 03 September 2017 - 01:57 AM

 

 

You need the combined circ. But more in front.

I understand that I need more Seat circumference, but if my bum is sticking out, wouldn't i need more in the back ?

Or ist that to fix the belly too ?

 

 

 

I do not understand what you did at the shoulder? Is there a yoke?

I didnt put a yoke in, but i've put the darts there from the Rundschau draft(the ones that would normally be included in the yoke). Its 1.5cm

 

 

 

You let in the 1.5 cm at center armhole and cut 1.5 cm away at back - but in front you cut 3 cm away.

The reason i did it assymetricaly, (3cm front and 1.5 back) is that with the rundschau draft, if you make the front wider, the shoulder angle gets shallower. And that messes with the shape of the armscye.

Its hard to see on the pictures, but the shoulder seams are pretty much an the highest spot along the shoulder where (i would think) they should be. Had i taken 2cm in the front and the back, the seam would go towards the back.

 

 

As for your suggestions, ill try them and report back.

 

Thanks a lot.


Edited by thrawn235, 03 September 2017 - 01:58 AM.


#14 thrawn235

thrawn235

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 05 September 2017 - 04:14 AM

Alright,

 

I've tweaked the Shoulders a bit and added a bit of front width at the hem.

Attached File  pattern.JPG   76.34KB   0 downloads

 

I had to drop the shoulders even more oO, and still some more on the right side.

Also, after a Buddy helped me like you said posaune, I dropped the outer 4cm or so a little more (by 0,5cm).

after all that i also dropped the armscye by another 1cm (not marked in the pattern)

 

At the front i added 1.5cm

 

Edit:

One more thing that i forgot, I added 2cm at the back shoulder and removed 2 at the front to shift the shoulder seam forward.

That is also in the basic Rundschau instructions for the yoke.

(still no actual yoke though)


Edited by thrawn235, 05 September 2017 - 04:24 AM.


#15 thrawn235

thrawn235

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 05 September 2017 - 04:18 AM

Thats the result:

Attached File  Front.JPG   38KB   0 downloadsAttached File  side.JPG   35.16KB   0 downloadsAttached File  back.JPG   36.91KB   0 downloads

 

That, it seems, has taken out the extra fabric at the chest :)

 

the back also looks pretty good to me now.

 

 

Should I do something else to the body,

like taking the sides in a little and adding darts in the back to take ot the fabric there (or something else Im missing right now) ?

 

Or should i try to attach sleeves ? (and open another can of worms i'm sure ;) )


  • Schneiderfrei likes this

#16 posaune

posaune

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 950 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Germany

Posted 05 September 2017 - 06:13 AM

well done. You see the fold at the right side (bust) that is your hanging side. But I would leave it as is for now.
Yes, you can take in the side seams if you want. But be careful in 0.5 cm steps - you can use darts in the back because of your sway back.
But this can be done when the sleeves are in.
Now the armhole: When I look at your pattern at the shoulder line I see a straight part from neck to shoulderbone
and then at a certain point the straight line curves down. This point is where you should mark your shoulder point.
(If you want an overcut shoulder then you could leave it, but you have to alter the proportional draft of the sleeve)
You have to draft your armhole new. Start 1 cm (s.a.) away from marked shoulder point and go down in a nice curve.
(You can make yourself an armhole template and rotate it) At right side you may have to go in more at the armhole sideseam point too.
So cut and baste first only the left sleeve.
lg
posaune
  • Schneiderfrei likes this

#17 thrawn235

thrawn235

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:18 AM

Ok, thats my sleeve pattern:

Attached File  pattern.JPG   58.43KB   0 downloads

 

The cap height is 13cm. But i didnt choose that height. The rundschau draft derives the cap height from the armscye circumference.

The circ is 53cm.

 

I had to add the 2cm strip in the middle because it was just too tight. 

Maybe I made an error when drafting it but i couldn't find one.

 

I added a gusset because i like to be able to move as freely as possible.

(I'm perfectly willing to remove it though if it proves to be a problem)

 

 

 

As for the Body pattern i shortened the shoulder seam by 2.5cm. Might still be 1 cm more than what you suggested (the point where it curves down +1cm) but i was afraid to cut even more.

 

(didn't add any darts yet, also didn't take in the sides)


Edited by thrawn235, 06 September 2017 - 02:25 AM.


#18 thrawn235

thrawn235

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:22 AM

Thats the result:

Attached File  IMG_1902.JPG   39.98KB   0 downloadsAttached File  IMG_1901.JPG   33KB   0 downloadsAttached File  IMG_1900.JPG   43.76KB   0 downloads

 

I only shortened the shoulder seam on the left side. The right side still has the old length.

 

 

As for the sleeve. It doesn't really look good in the front. lots of folds. its almost like the front of the sleeves drops down or the whole sleeve is rotated too far back.

Intrestingly, it looks way better in the back.

I'm going to wait for you all's suggestions. but my idea would be to widen the back and shorten the front under the arm. to move the side seam forward and rotate the sleeve back. But i could totally be on the wrong track.


Edited by thrawn235, 06 September 2017 - 02:23 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users