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Overcoat cuffs


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#1 Frog in Suit

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 07:32 PM

I am starting this topic to canvas public opinion as to the different types of overcoat cuffs.

I have recently ordered a heavy dark overcoat, suitable for formal occasions, city wear, etc… from Meyer & Mortimer (Jones Chalk & Dawson). It will be made in Dugdale 6306, a charcoal 25 oz. cloth (pictured in the Book Review of the Dugdale Overcoatings thread). Mr. Munday suggested cuffs, which I think would look good and add individuality, but we agreed to leave the precise design (with or without buttons, etc…) for the first fitting. Needless to say, I wish to remain firmly within the boundaries of the strictest good taste…Posted Image

Would anyone have suggestions, if possible, with pictures?

Many thanks.

Frog in Suit
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#2 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 09:58 PM

I wish to remain firmly within the boundaries of the strictest good taste…Posted Image


And you come here? :Shocked:
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#3 JMB

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 02:43 AM

Frog:

If the overcoat is single-breasted and intended for business and formalwear, a Chesterfield with peak lapels, a flyfront closure, a breast pocket, straight flap hip pockets, and a deep centre vent might appeal to you. It's a classic style that is timeless. Whether you prefer a self-fabric collar or a velvet collar, it's up to you. Regarding the cuffs, pass on your tailor's suggestion. Cuffed sleeves are more suitable for a polo coat than a dressy coat. Three buttons per sleeve will suffice nicely.

If the overcoat is double-breasted and intended for business and formalwear, a Chesterfield with peak lapels, six exposed horn buttons keyed to the color of the fabric, a breast pocket, straight flap hip pockets, and a deep centre vent might be to your liking. Again, the style is classic and timeless. Whether you prefer a self-fabric collar or a velvet collar, it's your choice. Regarding the cuffs suggested by your tailor, take a pass. Four buttons per sleeve
in this case are more preferable than three.

By the way, you can wear a tan cashmere or camelhair polo coat with formalwear. The contrast of the luxurious tan cloth
against the black-and-white formal ensemble is a knockout! Think about it for your next overcoat commission.

Whatever you choose, don't forget to add an elegant black fedora with a grosgrain ribbon and artfully tied bow. Let Graham Thompson make you one at Optimo Hats in Chicago.

JMB

#4 Frog in Suit

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 03:25 AM

Frog:

If the overcoat is single-breasted and intended for business and formalwear, a Chesterfield with peak lapels, a flyfront closure, a breast pocket, straight flap hip pockets, and a deep centre vent might appeal to you. It's a classic style that is timeless. Whether you prefer a self-fabric collar or a velvet collar, it's up to you. Regarding the cuffs, pass on your tailor's suggestion. Cuffed sleeves are more suitable for a polo coat than a dressy coat. Three buttons per sleeve will suffice nicely.

If the overcoat is double-breasted and intended for business and formalwear, a Chesterfield with peak lapels, six exposed horn buttons keyed to the color of the fabric, a breast pocket, straight flap hip pockets, and a deep centre vent might be to your liking. Again, the style is classic and timeless. Whether you prefer a self-fabric collar or a velvet collar, it's your choice. Regarding the cuffs suggested by your tailor, take a pass. Four buttons per sleeve
in this case are more preferable than three.

By the way, you can wear a tan cashmere or camelhair polo coat with formalwear. The contrast of the luxurious tan cloth
against the black-and-white formal ensemble is a knockout! Think about it for your next overcoat commission.

Whatever you choose, don't forget to add an elegant black fedora with a grosgrain ribbon and artfully tied bow. Let Graham Thompson make you one at Optimo Hats in Chicago.

JMB


Thank you.



The coat will be single-breasted, with a fly-front (which I take to mean with the front buttons hidden in the edge of the front of the coat – please correct me if I am wrong--), "normal", i.e., single-breasted, lapels, no breast pocket, two horizontal side pockets with flaps, deep centre vent. The collar will be of the same fabric as the rest of the coat. The edges of the coat will be raised.

I like the idea of cuffs, but am unsure as to what shape they should have, all the way around the sleeve (more or less like trouser turn-ups), or with an opening, with or without buttons (I would have four, if any), etc.

I only wear brown trilbies or a panama when I wear a hat. I don't think I am ready for a fedora, perhaps a homburg?

Lastly, what IS a "chesterfield"?

Frog in Suit

#5 Mr. Sandstad

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 04:31 AM

Here are a few older threads dealing with turn-back cuffs:

Turn-Back Cuffs The Tailor & Cutter, Sept 25, 1953
Two West End Lounges from 1950

The Best of the 1960s
(Here there are a few overcoats with cuffs.)

The Racing Coat or Paletot
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#6 JMB

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 05:13 AM

Frog:

Google Chesterfield Coat. What should appear on your screen is a Wikipedia entry with an illustration of a single-breasted Chesterfield, a double-breasted Chesterfield, and a backview of the style. Study the illustrations closely. There is also an entry which should explain from where the style was derived. You might want to rethink the ideas of
slant pockets, no breast pocket, and cuffs. Why? Simply because a Chesterfield will be the most formal overcoat in
your wardrobe. Perfection is hard to beat and not really required with an elegant coat of this kind.

Casual overcoats, such as those made of tweeds, and sportier jackets, lend themselves better to more stylish whims. You can play around with the style and placements of pockets, collar styles, tailored or blouson fits, etc. Dressier
coats for business and evening wear are by nature fancier. You can play with the choice of fabrics to some extent,
in terms of color and weave, but the lines are more severe and limited in terms of design. Our overcoat wardrobes
end up having examples of a charcoal, black and grey herringbone, navy blue, dark grey, medium grey, tan and, oh yes,
the ever favorite trenchcoat. Seven coats. Some wardrobe, eh? Go figure.

JMB

#7 Frog in Suit

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 08:06 AM

Thank you all.
I never said anything about slanted pockets (I generally do not like them), and mentioned from the beginning that there would be no breast pocket. The only question left is that of cuffs.

Mr. Sandstad,

Tusen Tak (Hope this is correct!) for the links and the historical references.

It is late and I need to sleep and ponder…Posted Image

Thanks again to both.
Frog in Suit

#8 Sator

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 08:11 AM

I think if you did a search of this forum you will find a lot of different patterns for "Chesters". The term is often used much more loosely than you would assume. This comes from J.P. Thornton's circa 1913 book The International System:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Note that it shows cuffs on the sleeves as well as angled pockets. These sorts of details change according to taste and fashion. Around the Edwardian era cuffed sleeves were almost standard. I have even seen angled pockets and ticket pockets on frock overcoats, as well as formal dress overcoats of various kinds.

This is the main thread on cutting Chesterfields. Here is an SB Chester from the 1930s.

#9 Sator

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 08:25 AM

And now to totally explode the notion of Eternal Style:

Posted Image

Posted Image

From A Dictionary of English Costume by the Cunningtons - no less. This Chester is DB, with a fur lined shawl collar! Even the fly front was not a constant feature. I think the notion of the Chesterfield having to have this or that feature is quite ridiculous. I would recommending choosing features that you find elegant rather than being allowing any false notions of Immutable Style dictating things.

#10 Sator

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 08:50 AM

By the way, you can wear a tan cashmere or camelhair polo coat with formalwear. The contrast of the luxurious tan cloth
against the black-and-white formal ensemble is a knockout!


What is a polo coat? My understanding is that Brooks Brothers in America once advertised a belted Ulster coat model as a "polo coat" and that name has stuck in American English for a belted Ulster. The American cutting text The New Mitchell System 1951 shows several different "Ulsters" as well as one "polo coat". The presence of a belt seems to be the only real distinguishing feature of the polo coat, and even this is said to be "optional".

Although I agree that an Ulster is probably fine for evening dress these days, I must admit I have never heard of it being worn as evening dress, especially not a camel coloured one. Ulsters are usually regarded as being more of a sports overcoat, however most men's garments including the dress coat (evening tailcoat) started as sportswear anyway. Raglan coats are another example of a sports overcoat that came to be adopted for evening dress.

#11 greger

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 05:06 PM

The Chesterfield is a classic cut and looks good plain to fancy. Cuffs look nice on them and there are many different kinds. Two buttons would look better than three or four on the "cuffs". But, the coat is your pleasure when you are having it made by a tailor.

#12 Frog in Suit

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 05:06 PM

And now to totally explode the notion of Eternal Style:


Do you mean this is it?!? Posted Image Life has no meaning!?! Posted Image Sator, you shouldn't have... Posted Image Posted Image

I would recommending choosing features that you find elegant rather than being allowing any false notions of Immutable Style dictating things.


More seriously, this is what I am trying to do. I think the model/features in plate 25 above, or the image immediately following, minus the velvet bits, or the Anthony Eden one, minus the DB lapels, plus cuffs of some description, will be fine. If I see correctly, most of the cuffs shown are plain, no visible buttons, and pretty deep. Mr. Munday showed me a very nice belted (I seem to remember) tweed overcoat with such cuffs, very different from what I am looking for, but a very fine garment nonetheless.
Many thanks for your advice.


So, I am left with:

SB, SB lapels, "hidden" front buttons, horizontal flapped pockets, not ticket pocket, raised edges, no velvet, cuffs (probably plain and pretty deep, but not absolutely certain yet), deep centre vent. The lining will be pale grey and there will be two inner breast pockets and two lower larger ones for gloves, scarf and folding hat when no proper hat stand is available.
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#13 Sator

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 06:33 PM

... folding hat when no proper hat stand is available.


For some reason this reminds me of the following invention. The automatic hat tipper:

Posted Image

“Much valuable energy is utilized in tipping the hat repeatedly and my device will relieve one of it and at once cause the hat to be lifted from the head in a natural manner. It is a novel device, in other words, for effecting polite salutations by the elevation and rotation of the hat on the head of the saluting party, when said person bows to the person saluted, the actuation of the hat being produced by the mechanism within it and without the use of the hands in any manner.”

Never again will you be have to put your things down to greet a lady.

#14 Frog in Suit

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 07:45 PM

For some reason this reminds me of the following invention. The automatic hat tipper:


Never again will you be have to put your things down to greet a lady.


Posted Image . Brilliant. A business opportunity, perhaps?Posted Image
Frog in Suit

#15 Mr. Sandstad

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 10:18 PM

Mr. Sandstad,

Tusen Tak (Hope this is correct!) for the links and the historical references.


That's almost perfect, just add another k so that it is "Takk" :thumbsup:

I thought I would add that you should make sure that the lining of the outside pockets be warm and cosy -- just in case you forget your gloves one day.

#16 Frog in Suit

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 12:20 AM

That's almost perfect, just add another k so that it is "Takk" Posted Image


Sorry!

I thought I would add that you should make sure that the lining of the outside pockets be warm and cosy -- just in case you forget your gloves one day.


The pockets will be "selvet" (sp?) pockets, which I understand is supposed to make them warm and cosy. What, by the way IS "selvet"?
Frog in Suit




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