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3 questions re: drape suit pants / zoot suit pants

drape suit zoot suit

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#1 lopez

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 01:14 PM

okay i lied about stopping at 3 questions and forgot to change the title. sorry for the bait and switch. i've been trying to decipher old original photos of zoot suit PANTS only. does anyone on here know:

 

Did drape suit pants or zoot suit pants ever have 4 panels to make a seamed pleat and for balance of grain with huge widths?

 

and were they completely on grain or on partial or true bias for drape?

 

was there a draping reason the pleat seemed to usually face the inside of the leg?

 

was there special treatment in the pegged cuff the way women's skirts used to have dust ruffles to protect skirts?

 

and lastly, why was there a split in the back waist band?

 

thank you for any insights advice tips any of y'all may have about trying to formulate a flattering flair and swagger.

 

(smile)

 

 


Edited by lopez, 19 August 2018 - 01:17 PM.


#2 lopez

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 05:21 AM

okay, good. no one's got an opinion either way so i can go into--or MAKE UP--- another area of tailoring men's clothing that resides somewhere in Claire Schaeffer's "definitional" list of tailoring grades (soft to hard).

 

from what i've read on here about people's distaste for the drape suit or oxford or zoot pant styles, it's wide open and i can write my own script as if i were doing home boy sag pants tailoring. LOVE IT! defiant rebellious elegance.

 

i'm going to keep the upper pant in back on the slight bias for a smooth fit atop and work on the drape in BACK as if i were adapting a single dart sleeve pattern for fancy built-in cuffs, for the "swag" style mostly in back. meaning i'll play around with a seam in back and keep the front one piece.

 

i'll give the cuff some inner support to hold the line but to balance the heavier, seamed back leg.

 

i've got David Coffin's pant book and i'll make up the rest from there...

 

thanks.



#3 greger

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 01:09 PM

Sorry. My books and information are stored away. Here is an article from the Smithsonian.

https://www.smithson...suit-180958507/

They are exaggerated large. Extra sized shoulder pads for example. Trousers were exaggerated pegged. Crotches were lowered. Unlike saggers the waistband was probably higher than normal. Hems of coats lowered probably to comically match. Indeed a tailors art. And its own style. They are obviously for fun. In making cut inlays wider incase you need to exaggerate more. Don't cut darts until you have pin fitted them for exact location. Lapels, of course, are big. These are fun clothes. So, have fun fitting them by experimenting different fits. This should all be done with pins for quickness. Although, a good pattern helps to start with. The first people making these were probably not tailors. If they could figure it out, then tailors shouldn't have to many problems, and do it better. The best tailors make for the reasons of the garments, which has reasons beyond the garments. Pick out the reasons and put them in order from most important to lest important, and make accordingly. This is why some tailors take an ordinary pattern and adjust it to what ever style. Styles and variations are often invented on the spot.



#4 lopez

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Posted 25 August 2018 - 07:53 AM

WHOA... THANK YOU FOR ALL THAT. this is particularly fascinating to me because the higher end suits, like cab calloway's, had too smart or controlled a silhouette: "making cut inlays wider incase you need to exaggerate more."

 

i'm going to copy and save your response as it's dense like a beautiful fist to the face of so much POW!

 

thank you soooo much... i cannot get enough of this because it's like a secret within a secret now.



#5 lopez

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Posted 25 August 2018 - 08:02 AM

"The best tailors make for the reasons of the garments, which has reasons beyond the garments. Pick out the reasons and put them in order from most important to lest important, and make accordingly. This is why some tailors take an ordinary pattern and adjust it to what ever style. Styles and variations are often invented on the spot."

 

and yes! yes! NOW i see why it takes so LONG to develop one's own AESTHETIC! you back into it because of what you hope are solid REASONS. with art or writing it's because you "feel" like it; but YES... i see what you mean about REASONS (the new boundaries/limitations make for the creative play yard). that is why i am intrigued by zoot suit philosophy re-done for NOW.

 

thank you for the directions on main suit FIRST then HAVING FUN with the pin fitting. i see it before me like a vague misty water colored idea of how to pull this off...



#6 greger

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Posted 25 August 2018 - 12:00 PM

This one tailor didn't answer my question.. But, he give a lesson. Coats have different names, at least in the past. One area might have a name for a coat, and another area the same name but a different coat. A customer ask for the coat and the tailor gets it ready for the first fitting. It is put on the customer and the customer looks in the mirror and says, "That's not the coat I want!" Maybe he changed his mind. Well, you don't blame the customer. If you have proper inlays the coat is adjustable in to the desired coat. Exception, single breasted in to a double breasted. Some tailors always cut so that a single breasted can be made in to double breasted. Wishy washy customers.



#7 lopez

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Posted 26 August 2018 - 02:37 AM

you're BLOWING MY MIND, actually, Mr Greger.

 

you tailors see things in the entire UNIVERSE differently: you see BEHIND "man behind the curtain" as YOU MAKE HIS SUIT and the wishy washiness. i say this because as co-creator, the tailor gives ROOM for this change evolution or specificity... which is what makes a person more of who they..."become"?

 

i'm an art chick, so forgive the constant philosophizing but it's how i back into this vision as it emerges, not as i make it. so you say/write the same thing. about the room the INLAYS to change the sculpture, because regarding drape/zoot suit pant swagger (oxford bells were just GOOFY, all same size like that), regarding that SWAGGER, a man has to feel he can carry that look outside into the world of theatre.

 

and zoot suit pant drape... yes, you are correct: start with the basic before going all out with the drama. different men will be able to carry different amounts of drama another will look clownish and need straight.

 

and i thought i'd have to drape each customer anew to see where the lines would go but if i have inlays ... oh you make me SWOON because you have inadvertantly helped to define my entire house look that i need to be able to rely on word-of-mouth and avoid online to build up ...the art of SEDUCTION to whisper and succeed in a technical dystopian capitalist rentier feudal world where we must re-create old arts within the cracks. our specialty!

 

i laugh, too. but i stopped at the flip phone that i never turn on and i'm going back to the 1980s when you had to go down scary dark alleys on your own to find something interesting and worth the journey; not some click of a button and you can just BUY the "experience." i want to do something you cannot get anywhere. i cannot exist in THEIR world. i quit.

 

but we've all got rent to pay so i've got a gorgeous former pro athlete and his coterie of hard-to-fit wealthy pro athlete and business friends to fit. and THEY are the ones who seemed to choose this zoot suit drape pant when i tried to see what THEY wanted. something special underground and not had by everyone or even anyone. so i'm going back to the original REASONS for the zoot suit but trying to twist it for ..NOW.

 

i'm going back to the split fishmouth waist (all one-piece/no waistband) in the back to use the bias to cover and smooth around the dramatic small of the back (they DIG showing the smalls of their lower backs like you wouldn't BELIEVE) and for coverage when they lift up high which they do, so i need the drape to come from your inlay epiphany. it's PERFECT. and if i mess with pin stripe, cross grain inlays could make me swoon. may be too feminine. i have to be gentle. i have drag queen tendencies of my own that i live in full bloom.


Edited by lopez, 26 August 2018 - 02:53 AM.


#8 greger

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Posted 26 August 2018 - 04:19 AM

You take this into areas I never thought of, such as drag queen. Can't imagine what that could look like. That's outside my scope.



#9 lopez

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 02:46 AM

i was kidding! i was talking about my tendency to over-do things.

but this inlay idea is genius. absolutely brilliant and genius.






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