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Full Bespoke For Only 375 Pounds!


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#19 Sator

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:25 AM

I'm actually much happier with it than what I got for a $1000 Hongkong 'bespoke' posted in my other (infamous 21 oz) thread (which only had two fittings).


I should say that it matters little whether you had one fitting or ten. The question is whether the fitter can see the error in the first place. If the eye is blind to the problem, having a hundred fittings won't help. It is a patent falsehood spread by internet fora that more fittings = better. Some very good cutters could nail your pattern with only one forward fitting.

That said, I would plead with you to give Gordon Yao a chance to right the problems on your suit by him. Everyone makes mistakes. We are all human.

#20 Martin Stall

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:37 AM

We are all human.


Oh yeah? Speak for yourself buddy. I myself am from a small planet in the vicinity of Betelgeuse, and I know a Scandinavian deity (are you listening, SG?) who is, as we speak, hurling his hammer at Australia. Duck! :Big Grin:

More to the point:
The real goal of becoming a cutter is not just to implement a house style or to do really good fittings. It starts with the careful observation of posture, build, and movement. After that comes a thorough understanding of the cutting system, then there is the knowledge of various making techniques, and finally the importance of fittings comes into play.
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#21 Sator

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:47 AM

Duck!


Ha! Missed!

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#22 greger

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:33 AM

That is impressive. Now I want to go to Thailand make an internship. I don't care if the fit is not so good, making a suit in 1 hour is very impressive.


What did he say? One tailor making one side of the coat another the other side, and then there is the back, so another tailor, not to forget another making the sleeves, or was that two tailor, one per sleeve, and that one over there making the vest, or is it two or three tailors, while over here two or four tailors making the pants, these other tailors making the canvases and collars, oh!, can't forget the ones making the linings. All told, I would go them instead of many others.

#23 Svenn

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 01:48 PM

That said, I would plead with you to give Gordon Yao a chance to right the problems on your suit by him. Everyone makes mistakes. We are all human.


Do you have personal experience with him? I don't know, there was a combination of factors that make me hesitant to try him again... the first was that he didn't even have a mirror so I could see the problem in the back... I remember him frequently tugging on the bottom of the skirt and muttering as if that would somehow solve the problem. He was very stubborn with making other changes, and if I showed him the errors you pointed out with the suit, I am sure he would respond with his trademark 'it's ok already'. He cut the trousers with the waist tugged up really high, which explains why they appear too long (I guess I have to wear suspenders until I can find someone to fix them). That said, I am very pleased with the coat from the waist up... I don't think I could get anything that nice for the $700 USD he charges for labor (I provided the fabric)... though this $300 fused coat in Thailand is turning out surprisingly well so far (partially because the tailor has Yao's mistakes to work off of), I'll post pics as soon as it's done.

#24 Schneidergott

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 03:22 PM

Oh yeah? Speak for yourself buddy. I myself am from a small planet in the vicinity of Betelgeuse, and I know a Scandinavian deity (are you listening, SG?) who is, as we speak, hurling his hammer at Australia. Duck! :Big Grin:



The deity in question is more Nordic than just Scandinavian. Thor was known as Donar to the Saxons and other tribes in the North.
But fear little, my hammer is in for maintenance. The handle got a bit loose and it's nasty to swing your hammer and top comes off...
In the meantime I use my 16" Heinisch shears... 8)

More to the point:
The real goal of becoming a cutter is not just to implement a house style or to do really good fittings. It starts with the careful observation of posture, build, and movement. After that comes a thorough understanding of the cutting system, then there is the knowledge of various making techniques, and finally the importance of fittings comes into play.


All true, but what about those MTM operations, where the customer is measured and fitted by salespeople?
A colleague told me that one of her daughter's friends (who has no experience in sewing or anything related) is now selling MTM suits. :Black Eye:

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#25 Sator

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 04:13 PM

Do you have personal experience with him? I don't know, there was a combination of factors that make me hesitant to try him again...if I showed him the errors you pointed out with the suit, I am sure he would respond with his trademark 'it's ok already'.


I don't know anything about him except his name. I don't mean order from him again, I mean you should give him a chance to fix the suit he made you. Don't assume he won't fix the problem if you haven't asked him to in the first place. All I am saying is that people should always be given a chance.

#26 brescd01

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 10:43 PM

My imagination does not permit a bespoke suit for $500, but Toyo supposedly does a suit for $1500 in Bergen. Yao and his like are not comparable because Yao's business model is to make the suits in China where labor is so much cheaper. Is there a sum below which (in a Western country) one can be pretty sure the suit will not be very good?

Edited by brescd01, 30 July 2011 - 10:44 PM.


#27 Nishijin

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 07:07 PM

I usually need more than 80hours of work to cut and make a 2 pieces suit. I know some tailors need less, maybe they work faster, maybe they take shortcuts, but I don't believe a real bespoke, bench made suit can take less than 50 hours. I mean, even Kiton need 25 hours to sew the coat only in their factory, and while the work is nice they do take a few shortcuts. That is for sewing the coat only. Add the trousers (16h), and the time needed to cut, and the one spent with the customer.
So let's stay minimal, take 50 hours. Multiply by minimal hour rate in your area. Add cloth and trimmings. Then add taxes, and a margin for profit because if there is no profit margin then your tailor won't stay in business for long : even at zero net profit, he still needs to pay rent, tools, electricity, water...

When you add up all this, I don't understand how a real bespoke suur can be sold for 1000 , with 20% vat in UK.
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#28 Martin Stall

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 08:17 PM

It can't. If it's Real Bespoke ™ it will have it's cost, as you point out. So if it's that cheap, or even simply too cheap, they save money somewhere. Outsource to Asia? Why not. It doesn't mean the suit has to be of lower quality (though thorough fittings are compromised) but if they start playing with factors so as to save money, there will be some quality lost. Depending on the final price and the quality you get, that may or may not be justified.

Bespoke, however, it is not. As we all know, you can't actually create a definition for bespoke that holds up in all countries and in all business models, and frankly, I'm tired of the discussion. What I will never tire of though, is getting upset about people who misrepresent what they do. If you sell a suit for $500 it simply is not bespoke. Saying that it is simply means lying to people.

Received an email the otheIf he thinks I am even remotely interesting in selling suits at around $350 he hasn't even seen my website. Which means his marketing stinks. Which is a good thing, because at least he won't prosper and be allowed to befuddle people. A certainty I further enjoy, seeing the quality of writing on his website (which was completely broken - some way to score a new client eh). Was of a mind to write back and tell him off for trying to essentially scam people, but thought the better of it.

In essence, the true test of bespoke is basically looking at the way a tailor presents himself: If his message can be summarised as: 'Really good suits, at good prices, no bullshit' there is a fairly good chance it's real bespoke. Either that, or he's a crook in which case he'll soon be out of business.

A suit does indeed take some 80 hours of labour. Even if you get the making done in Asia, and you save 50% on labour costs, you still have costs in infrastructure, shipping, communications, not to forget money held in float for longer due to the obvious delay caused by outsourcing and you'll see that if a Real Tailor ™ normally charges say $3000 for a suit and starts offering an Asian made, more affordable solution, the suit should still cost something like $2000 or whatever it works out to. Not something insanse like $800 because that would mean it's not a cheaper bespoke suit - it's no longer a bespoke suit.
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#29 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 01:52 AM

This video shows a full bespoke process:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KB7oD77XW68

Even though most of the process is "hidden" to the eye of the customers, it has to be in it.

There are quite a number of companies around that offer "bespoke" (no ) for less than 375,- GBP or 400,- .
Some let you meet real people (sales people), others will create a suit based on the measurement you send them. In any case, it's not full bespoke !

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#30 greger

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 11:19 AM

I think the question is not price but what is bespoke and what is tailoring? After all, before rtw, and later m2m, what was it like then. Beggars got hand me downs as did some of the poor that weren't beggars. But all the rest paid tailors and others for their clothes, and they couldn't all pay for top quality. So, how did tailors make low end clothes? The price range here depended on how much a person could pay. If you put in half the pad stitching that would lower the cost. If you put in a quarter the pad stitching, again that takes less time. If not all the fancy pressing is done that saves time, and time is money. If you put flaps on but no pocket there. The list of less goes on and on until you have a really cheap garment, but still bespoke tailoring. Without charging less per hour what is the cheapest a suit can be made after knocking out the high-end and medium-end, so it is the low-end and still be bespoke tailoring? According to granddad highest-end tailoring was all hand sewn. High-end to lower used machines. Prices accordingly. Some of the rich certainly paid higher prices- what were they paying for? There certainly is different price ranges within bespoke tailoring. Can the price be as low as 375,- GBP or 400,- ? I don't think so.

Now if tailoring is pad-stitching then fuse is not tailoring when it replaces pad-stitching. There can be other reasons for fuse. Bespoke means custom, because the customer gets to create (customization would be m2m, pre-selected adaption to patterns).




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