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#19 benjaminh

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:01 AM

Thanks posaune. While manipulating the pattern pieces, I just noticed something that likely is the cause of multiple neck/shoulder area issues. The back neck hole is about 1.7cm wider than the front neck, when measured from CB and CF. When I sewed the muslin together, I just aligned the neck hole edges of the front and back and stitched outward. This would mean that I currently have ~3.4 cm of excess at CB in the shoulder area. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

I suppose I should fix this problem first, and see what that will cause.

 

ybdqpmoqyd8pnzx4g.jpg



#20 posaune

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:17 AM

Do it - if it is so much. I think that your back neck is more on the tight side.

As far as I remember the back neck is draftet 1 cm larger as the front neck hole. (1/6 of Neckcirc + 1 cm)

That is okay. (In ladies it is about 0.5 larger - but here the Hs is derived from the bust circ, ridiculous).  I think, men have a more developed muscle there. And it depends on posture too.

The alteration if needed will push the front Shoulderpoint more out.

lg

posaune

I got just a link to a Video from inhouse pattern. I think Alexandra shows the situation very clearly. It is the other way round  front neck hole has same width as back. But you can see (better from my meager explaining) what is going on. look under

inhousepatternsstudio.com 

under free videos

Quik tips for patterns taht fit, Neckline Balance


Edited by posaune, 13 June 2018 - 03:05 AM.

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#21 benjaminh

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 09:40 AM

I got just a link to a Video from inhouse pattern. I think Alexandra shows the situation very clearly. It is the other way round  front neck hole has same width as back. But you can see (better from my meager explaining) what is going on. look under

inhousepatternsstudio.com 

under free videos

Quik tips for patterns taht fit, Neckline Balance

 

Thanks for that video; I've watched it and I now know why the back neck is supposed to be larger. Mine is drafted correctly, as per Rundschau, so the distance to the darker vertical line is 1/6 of Neckcirc + 1 cm. The tip is a little further, because the neckline and yoke is extended upward 2cm as per draft. 

 

I'll now continue with the suggested modifications.



#22 benjaminh

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 11:13 AM

OK, I've completed the first set of adjustments, I'm just not certain about correcting the shoulder length. Do I match the back shoulder angle to the front shoulder angle, and then just make sure it is the same length as it was, measured from neck hole? This is assuming that the back shoulder seam is supposed to be straightened after the adjustments. As well, do I add a yoke/side dart again?


Edited by benjaminh, 13 June 2018 - 01:36 PM.

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#23 posaune

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 11:47 PM

Hi Benjaminh. I attach a link. Hope it is clear.

http://www.mediafire...lade_2.png/file.

You only transfer the neckhole and shoulderline to the left the amount you have cut away at CB.

You close the dart again. Then connect both points to the original cut line. if you want a horizontal yoke you can move the 2 dart points down.

Nothing complicated. See altered and original it gives you more length (up) between the shoulderblades but leaves the shoulder point at it original height. The dart increases.

lg

posaune


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#24 benjaminh

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:57 AM

Last questions on this, my apologize for my difficulties in grasping this adjustment. How does the bottom of the shoulder ("yoke") dart get lower in the altered version, i.e. how does the dart increase? Will this whole adjustment not cause the back to have more length, and thus throw off the balance? Or does the increased side dart take up this extra material, just leaving extra over the shoulder blades?


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#25 posaune

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:47 PM

http://www.mediafire...ulder1.png/file

http://www.mediafire...ulder3.png/file

http://www.mediafire...ulder4.png/file

http://www.mediafire...282%29.png/file

 

here is the same process again. Maybe better understandable. The bottom gets lower because you draw  it. In this example you move both dart point 0.7 cm lower till the one dart leg (or yoke) is level. And yes the bigger dart takes it out. As you see in the last pic (before and after (red) ) the neck point is stable and the shoulderpoint in x too. You have in pic 3 an version a and b. When you rotate the dart close you will have a little hump in the back shoulder. In real live you can't do in a yoke. You can now take version a or b. B is the correct one but it enlarges the dart - so you must look if you can sew it. You have to lengthen die dart length till 2 cm to the shoulder blades point. Version b gives some with over the shoulder blades too. Which is good too.  I have decieded for the easy solution  I connected Neckpoint and shoulderpoint and cut awy the little hump (o.26 cm).

lg

posaune


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#26 benjaminh

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 11:06 AM

http://www.mediafire...ulder1.png/file

http://www.mediafire...ulder3.png/file

http://www.mediafire...ulder4.png/file

http://www.mediafire...282%29.png/file

 

here is the same process again. Maybe better understandable. The bottom gets lower because you draw  it. In this example you move both dart point 0.7 cm lower till the one dart leg (or yoke) is level. And yes the bigger dart takes it out. As you see in the last pic (before and after (red) ) the neck point is stable and the shoulderpoint in x too. You have in pic 3 an version a and b. When you rotate the dart close you will have a little hump in the back shoulder. In real live you can't do in a yoke. You can now take version a or b. B is the correct one but it enlarges the dart - so you must look if you can sew it. You have to lengthen die dart length till 2 cm to the shoulder blades point. Version b gives some with over the shoulder blades too. Which is good too.  I have decieded for the easy solution  I connected Neckpoint and shoulderpoint and cut awy the little hump (o.26 cm).

lg

posaune

 

Thanks posaune, I now completely understand. 

 

For making the back width smaller: I currently have two 1.5cm darts, which would mean that I have to pivot in the sides 1.5cm each. Is this fine, or will this relatively large amount alter the shoulder and armscye area too much?


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#27 posaune

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 09:51 PM

Again a pic

http://www.mediafire...ulder5.png/file

original with 20.6 backwidth using the Rundschau measure table

cutted

rotated 1.5 cm - at upper shoulder blade you take 0.4 cm out. ... red is the side seam and at shoulder top  made the line straight (backwidth is  now 19.3)

last is a shirt drafted with 19.3 backwidth  all other measurements are the same.

As the shoulder measurements depends on the back width they are smaller.

If the 0.4 cm over the shoulder blades are too much you can start cut and the rotating from the dart point. (then there will be horizontal stretched folds).

You measure the front side seam and the back side seam and move the back sidepoint up.

I hope your question is answered

lg

posaune


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#28 benjaminh

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 01:06 PM

Thanks posaune; here are some photo's with all the modifications completed:

4gd926dcrvc1z9v4g.jpg

ch8k7q6qh155wc34g.jpg

mu56wc196dam9qi4g.jpg

ip4pfmzxadzfmza4g.jpg

bqakho23a1hfaoj4g.jpg



#29 posaune

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 07:09 PM

Good.

We have now 2 (3) other alterations.

I thtink we will do the front balance first. You see the bust line and the waist line going up at CF. Waist it is more noticeable.

You open your shoulder seam. You let out the front neck shoulder tip about 0.7 cm taper to nothing at SP at left side. You pin only close with 1 pin over the bust point. The CF of left side should fall level. 

-If not, it can be that the BB is not big enough (because we did away fabric at the back). If this is the case you do like you did in the back only the other way round. Cut vertical and horizontal. You rotate it out. Look how much fabric is lacking at CF bust line. Connect to the hem enlarge the waist half of the amount you rotated out and the hem too.

-Or the 0.7 was not enough (which is not likely in my opinion) but maybe 1 cm is appropiate.

do the right side too.

 

Then I want you to look at your neck from back and left and right side (please, on new pics, because the neck has changed. Do not fear to clip through the stay stitching till you feel real relaxed.

Look at the indentations and where the neck goes into the body and how it runs.

In principle you can feel it gliding up and down with you fingers hold close together.  What do you notice? Where should you alter?

And the last will be the right armhole form. Take a pic and draw a nice curve where you think your arm folds is running. Take your paper pattern and draft in what you have estimated. (look special at the lower part.I would cut it par example  0.5 cm deeper. But i can't see it).

Make yourself a armhole template, means, lay your pattern as you would sew them together at side seam and copy your new armhole on a paper sheet (add the s.a.) glue the dart close.

This you can pin to your shirt and recut the armhole. Keep the template. Here you can walk your sleeve later.

lg

posaune

if we are finished I'll write a doctor thesis about oh my!


Edited by posaune, 16 June 2018 - 07:10 PM.

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#30 benjaminh

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Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:16 PM

OK, I've opened the shoulder seam and let out ~0.8cm at the front neck shoulder tip, but it didn't correct the balance issue, at least not fully. In the photos below, I quickly applied the modification to both shoulders.

 

My question now is this: why can't I just add more material at CF instead of at the side seam? Don't both methods produce the same affect in the pattern, i.e. a larger BB? 

 

60kvqtvki06eaz54g.jpg
rqfe33kcw23hbgk4g.jpg

zdmzanunmomjoxn4g.jpg

rcrm81uebc0cc4u4g.jpg


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#31 posaune

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Posted 17 June 2018 - 07:38 PM

Well, we will do it your way. I do not think that this alteration was okay. So it is not the balance - it is the width. Back to the roots and let out 1- 1.5 cm at the CF from neck to hem.  Resew the shoulder as was.

I did suggest going from the side seam because I did not want to disturb the shoulder area and the neck shape. But the neck shape is wrong anyway.  And the shoulder gives us now folds we hadn't had before.

By the way - did you look how the CF behave when unpinned?

lg

posaune

No, let the shoulder as it was we will look at the CF(straight or slanted)  and decide later.


Edited by posaune, Yesterday, 01:06 AM.

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#32 benjaminh

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Posted Yesterday, 02:16 AM

No, let the shoulder as it was we will look at the CF(straight or slanted)  and decide later.

 

Do you want me to leave the shoulder as it is now, and take a pic with CF unpinned, or with only one pin on the bust line?


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#33 posaune

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Posted Yesterday, 06:18 AM

yes, let the shoulder as is now. Take 2 pics. One the CF unpinned. And one pinned. And while you are at it one with the enlarged BB - pinned at bust.

It is a bit diffcult to deceide for me it is balance or the forward posture.

 

lg

posaune


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#34 posaune

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Posted Today, 06:16 AM

hI, I just want to say that I'm at holiday till 27 June. In the meantime, please, proceed. Your are very advanced and will make progress. I'll have a look every day.

What I expect: I think that it will be too much fabric at front neck /shoulder-surprise me!-but fabric will be needed from bust down to hem.  Pin the amount what the shirt needs. Do not bother about grain line.

And try to get the neck hole right. Use your hand an fingers to get it right. It can be that your right neck hole will be different from the left one. In the last series of pics the right side is hanging quite a bit. It is no use to ignore this. It maybe the case when your are tired.

lg

posaune



#35 benjaminh

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Posted Today, 11:48 AM

Posaune, enjoy your holiday! Thanks again for all the help you've given me.

 

 

 

 

As is, with no pinning at CF:

b7vcp3h9dh4bfaj4g.jpg

 

As is, with pin at bust:

fgzectk6uj3hq8n4g.jpg

bw2tumodg8o7ia24g.jpg

 

Pinned at bust only, with 1.5cm width added at CF:

1knyw8ikz57l3ne4g.jpg

 

Pinned down CF, with 1.5cm width added at CF:

0l2of997cye4acd4g.jpg

ary6jbiy76fb95w4g.jpg

 

In the pics with width added at CF, two folds have appeared in the front above the bust line, so I think posaune's prediction of too much fabric at front neck/shoulder is correct. The horseshoe folds are reduced, but still present, so I'm not sure if I need more width from bust to hem? I'm not exactly sure how I "pin the amount the shirt needs," in a way that is practical to transfer to the pattern. Do I do this at CF, or at the side seams?






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