Jump to content


Photo

Bespoke disasters which can be fixed


  • Please log in to reply
48 replies to this topic

#1 Michael the Beloved Ay329

Michael the Beloved Ay329

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 18 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 December 2009 - 01:45 PM

I posted the following on the London Lounge about a disaster, which was fixed.

Since I am without sin, I shall throw the first stone

I liked this old pic. It wasn't a DB jacket, but had some overlap. My tailor said we can try 2 inches...since 4 inches makes it into a DB jacket.

Posted Image

The first pic is how it originally came out. It was only at the final fitting that I even noticed that there were no quarters and the front of the jacket was cut more like a coat. My tailor, Nick the Greek mentioned due to the overlap, it would look best this way...so I went home with it...but didn't like it. After summoning up some courage, I took it back with instructions to remove the 2 inches of overlap, which necessitated taking in the sides, moving the buttons over and re-cutting to create more open quarters.

Posted Image

The second pic is after my tailor adjusted the jacket. I am glad that I tried this new angled quarter look (got it out of my system), but will likely stick with the more traditional rounded open quarter designs that he's made for me in the past.

Posted Image

Experimenting with different styles and cloths is better helping me develop my own style. It has its cost as I was disappointed at how the original jacket looked, but my tailor is minutes away from my work and worked with me on making adjustments to my satisfaction. Kind regards to some fellow members who made some solid criticisms and commented on how best to improve the jacket's look

Part 2

It just so happened that my next disaster wasn't even my fault...and it happened again.

Posted Image

Although I asked for a single breasted vest with no lapel, Nick opted to surprise me with the above pictured vest.
The double breasted vest can be gorgeous dependent on a number of factors, the tailors skill, the weight of the cloth, and the shape of the client. A perfect storm mixed to create this disaster

First of all it came out as a double breasted vest. I am already well fed as is and felt a DB vest, coupled with the weight (21oz.) and thickness of this cloth would make me look more corpulent. I need bespoke tailoring to hide my bad spots...not make them look worse!

The next mistake was having so many faux buttons...7 on this one. I prefer high buttoned vests given my shape and my tailors inability to make a low button vest fit me well, but this was just way too many faux buttons.

I never liked the look of Notch lapeled double breasted jackets. Peak lapels look so much better.
Let this above pic be a WARNING to all who wonder how a DB Notch lapel high button vest might look like.
I'm glad I have it in my wardrobe (especially on colder days), but never again...not even for a DB jacket

As a side note, I love these full trousers with English reverse pleats. I had extra cloth and made a second pair with regular pleats

The second pic was the second vest that I wanted: single breasted, high button, no lapels.
The fit is excellent and I like how the V neck opening of the vest partially covers the tips of my shirt collar.

The lesson learned, always buy extra cloth.

Posted Image

If you are wondering, I prefer deep vest pockets to place my wallet, keys and a hidden firearm when needed. Thus the pockets are higher up then those worn by others

You are all welcome to comment on how you would have fixed this mess when re-cutting the jacket

[BTW I've moved this thread here because the OP isn't the maker of the coat. Cheers, Sator :)]

#2 Der Zuschneider

Der Zuschneider

    Master

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,445 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:TX, Houston
  • Interests:- German Cutting Systems
    - Modern Tailoring by German Semi-Traditional Standards

Posted 31 December 2009 - 05:12 PM

The single breast vest looks like a ton. there is nothing you can do, maybe you can wear it in Alaska with minus 45 degree.
The double breast vest dont look that bad is a good vest for cold days. The lapels I have seen in some 100 year old cutting book, notch lapel is possible.

The cloth in my opinion is to thick for a suit. The trousers have to many folds, but that is taste. The Tailor anyway makes good work, next time you need to look over him when he makes the pattern so he stick to your ideas nit to his. He meant it only good he looks like a good person.
www.berlinbespokesuits.com

#3 Sator

Sator

    Administrator

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,998 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 31 December 2009 - 05:27 PM

The cloth in question is no heavier than what you see on a lot of 1950s Rundschau, Schneiderhandwerk, T&C etc pictures. The reason it looks bulky is partly because the coat lacks shape and overall looks rather lumpy. It has to do a lot with how it has been worked up. This is how a coat should look on a stouter figure:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

It needs more "Schluss" - the way the coat "closes into" the figure to make the most of what you have.

#4 posaune

posaune

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,041 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Germany

Posted 31 December 2009 - 07:49 PM

OT
hehehe
"Schluss", Sator?

well remembered!
Posaune

#5 Terri

Terri

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ontario Canada

Posted 01 January 2010 - 01:28 AM

Hello,
I don't think the jacket needed such cut away shaping in the fixing... it is quite extreme and it could have been a gentler shape, as in the illustrations that you first had..
I actually liked the straight cut fronts a bit more than the extremely cut back quarters....
The other thing I notice is that the waistcoats look very long- now that could be the camera angle, but in the close up photo of the SB one, you can see it wanting to ride up creating excess fabric at the waist area.
  • Sator likes this

#6 amateursarto

amateursarto

    Pro

  • Senior Apprentice
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 562 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:STL, MO, USA
  • Interests:shirt and tie making, tailoring

Posted 01 January 2010 - 02:59 AM

I have a question, and no disrespect is meant to the Michael at all, but when a person is "stout" as was mentioned, isn't a more slimming effect achieved when the coat and waist coat are cut with a longer lapel? I personally like a more buttoned up look (like the one in the SB pic), but I was just wondering. thanks for answering... btw, Micheal, I think the cloth is nice and its cool to see people express their own personal style, especially when it deviates from what is considered to be the norm...what's the quality of cloth used (if I may ask)?
AMATEURSARTO

#7 Schneidergott

Schneidergott

    Master

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,681 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scotland

Posted 01 January 2010 - 06:19 AM

Michael, you might consider to have the shoulder width slightly reduced (1/2" or so) and the collar a bit closer/ higher up your neck. When the collar is a bit further away it will create the illusion of a coat being larger than it actually is (thin neck).
Another thing that works very well is to taper the seam from armhole to the pocket. To give you a rough idea:

Posted Image

To enhance that effect the space between the front and side panel can be eliminated, which makes a stronger waist suppression.
Here is an example showing that it actually works. The coat sits on a dummy which does not represent my actual shape (I'm a bit less obese).
First the lateral view, you can clearly see how much belly the dummy has:

Posted Image

Followed by a frontal pic. Note the taper above the pockets although there is no front chest dart in it:

Posted Image
  • Sator likes this

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#8 Der Zuschneider

Der Zuschneider

    Master

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,445 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:TX, Houston
  • Interests:- German Cutting Systems
    - Modern Tailoring by German Semi-Traditional Standards

Posted 01 January 2010 - 11:46 AM

The cloth in question is no heavier than what you see on a lot of 1950s Rundschau, Schneiderhandwerk, T&C etc pictures. The reason it looks bulky is partly because the coat lacks shape and overall looks rather lumpy. It has to do a lot with how it has been worked up. This is how a coat should look on a stouter figure:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

It needs more "Schluss" - the way the coat "closes into" the figure to make the most of what you have.


Happy new Year

The first 2 are made very well, the third lacks stomach 'Schluss' thatís also the reason for the Michael's coats. But I say the fabric is to thick and the tailor made the stomach darts to small, ironwork are missing in the front, probably the darts in the canvas too small, in the brown coat the 'Bauchbreite' is far too big as well. The Tailor maybe only had a 'Herrgoettle'.
  • Sator likes this
www.berlinbespokesuits.com

#9 Sator

Sator

    Administrator

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,998 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 01 January 2010 - 12:12 PM

I agree that the execution of the corpulent cut could be much better, and that the coat could do with more ironwork to give it shape. Unfortunately for the client, it is not really possible to ask that the tailor do this, as it really just means that the tailor needs to improve his cutting and tailoring skills.

As for the unusual way the foreparts have been made square without any cutaway or taper of the foreparts it is somewhat unusual. The way it has been corrected forming angled corners has probably made it look worse, if anything. It would have been preferable to have placed a French curve on the lower foreparts and tapered it away gradually.

As for this business about having to have "open quarters" (what on earth is a quarter???) it was decreed by a certain poster elsewhere and everyone seems to follow the advice without questioning it. It comes from the same source that proclaimed drape to be "superior to all others silhouettes" :hmm:. The style with squared skirt has actually been modestly popular in the past for sports coats. The degree to which the skirt is cut away is entirely to fashion and taste. However, the squared skirt is not currently fashionable, and it is unusual that a tailor should cut that way without first consulting the client.

As for step lapels on a DB waistcoat, that is a style that has historical precedent. Waistcoats can be cut with much more freedom than coats.

It should be kept in mind that many small stand alone tailors find it difficult to find the time to lovingly draft an unusual fancy pattern. Fancy cuts need to be executed carefully otherwise they tend to look rather baroque and costumey. Many stand-alone tailors who rely on volume for their income prefer to use block patterns (the 'icons' that Der Zuschneider refers to) or only execute the same lounge coat cut over and over. Once you step away from the stock standard cut, such tailors find it too time consuming to tweak a fancy pattern until it looks good, or lack the imagination to be able to make it look good - usually it is both. In such cases, you should stick to the plainest, default style of the tailor as possible. Or else if you want fancy cuts to be executed, find a more high-class tailor who is willing to spend the time. Expect to pay accordingly.

#10 greger

greger

    Master

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,165 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Washington, USA

Posted 01 January 2010 - 03:52 PM

"quarter" "open quarters" Has been used for a long time. It's not new in tailoring.

Edited by greger, 01 January 2010 - 03:53 PM.


#11 Sator

Sator

    Administrator

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,998 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 01 January 2010 - 03:54 PM

"quarter" "open quarters" Has been used for a long time. It's not new in tailoring.


I've never seen it in a British tailoring publication. American English perhaps?

#12 Sator

Sator

    Administrator

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,998 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 01 January 2010 - 05:03 PM

OT
hehehe
"Schluss", Sator?

well remembered!
Posaune


It's just one of those words that you can't really translate like Zeitgeist.

I understand that Michael is someone who prefers his cloths to be on the easy side, and he feels constricted by close fitting clothes. To that I should add that Schluss doesn't mean that it "closes you in", that it is tight, rather it means that even if cut to be easy, it stills looks like it is cut close to the body.

#13 Schneidergott

Schneidergott

    Master

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,681 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scotland

Posted 01 January 2010 - 07:29 PM

Here is a picture of the same man wearing 2 different coats, an Italian one the left and an English one on the right (made by "you know who"!)

Posted Image

The lines are identical in length to show the differences of width.

As you can see he looks much slimmer (and more confident) in the Italian coat. :Big Grin:

About the "Schluss": It may be that ay329's tailor did not make a corpulent pattern and simply adjusted a regular one to the desired measurements. By doing so there is no dart in the basic draft extending down to the hem. That dart will be closed, making the wedge (where the pocket will be) bigger. By doing so the desired shape is added. I will post a scan of the final pattern later on.
  • Sator likes this

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#14 jukes

jukes

    Pro

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,164 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London Suburbs

Posted 01 January 2010 - 07:46 PM

The english coat has been cut on the natural waist, and it looks like the Italian coat has been cut with the waist an inch higher which gives a slimming effect overall.

#15 Sator

Sator

    Administrator

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,998 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 01 January 2010 - 07:50 PM

It is also traditional to drop the fashion waist when cutting a draped coat.

#16 Sator

Sator

    Administrator

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,998 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 01 January 2010 - 07:59 PM

Another point to note to someone who feels trapped by fitted clothes: the reason why the above coat on the right makes the wearer look obese when he is actually trim has nothing to do with this business about "house style". As I say, even if the coat is cut easy and draped overall, there should still be the illusion of the coat being closely body tracing. The shapeless coat on the right is the product of poor cutting, fitting and tailoring - not "house style".

#17 Schneidergott

Schneidergott

    Master

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,681 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scotland

Posted 01 January 2010 - 11:23 PM

This would be similar to what you need:

Posted Image

The dart under the pocket has been closed and the chest area was opened a bit. The wedge got bigger. All this will add some shape to the front part.

If you feel uncomfortable in tight fitting clothes just ask your tailor to add more ease, usually a few cm for the whole coat will do (1").
The problem with using and manipulating a standard size block pattern is that he'd have to make too many compromises.
He can either pick the size according to your chest or your belly, so the each has be be adapted.
I guess he adapted the pattern to your waist and ended up with very wide shoulders and chest.
Since you are so close to your tailor's place, could you provide a picture of your coat pattern?
  • Sator likes this

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#18 hymo

hymo

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 164 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 January 2010 - 12:36 AM

I have a Japanese suit enthusiast magazine "Suit Catalog" and they call the quarters the "front cut".




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users