Jump to content


Photo

Shirt Draft Review - Help Needed


  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#1 Elsastreprincipiante

Elsastreprincipiante

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 35 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 July 2017 - 08:16 AM

Greetings! After many, many iterations, I'm finally getting closer to something that resembles a shirt. I would really appreciate any feedback or improvement opportunities about this shirt. I'm aware of a few issues, some I know how to remedy and some I'm uncertain about. Looking at the draft, I know that I have too much suppression in the side seams. I don't think I need much more ease, but indeed a little. The next most obvious issue for me is the collar. The back of the collar and stand sit far away from the back of my neck. I would think this is related to the depth of the back neck? Is that correct or is there anything else that needs to be done? And then there is everything around the armscye and sleeve. I'm not exactly certain what needs to be done there. There are drag lines on the body and the sleeve and I'm not sure what needs to be done exactly. I do think that the rear armscye has too much fabric and I need to remove a little but I'm not sure how that will affect mobility. Is there anything else I'm missing? I'd love any feedback or criticisms you might have! And yes, I know the sleeves are a little too short and the collar isn't sewn on perfectly straight...

 

balance.jpg

 

front.jpg

 

back.jpg

 

right.jpg

 

left.jpg



#2 cooleb09

cooleb09

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:18 PM

How does it look with arms raised?



#3 Schneiderfrei

Schneiderfrei

    Pro

  • Senior Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 822 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Adelaide, Australia
  • Interests:learning and imagination

Posted 16 July 2017 - 10:09 PM

From my perspective, you have a good fit across the shoulders, at front and back, barring the back neck hole. The front neck looks ok.

 

The right shoulder is elevated.  I think in the case of this draft that you might raise the right armhole/shoulder point first.

 

I wonder if there is insufficient width at the chest, or the armhole depth might be insufficient.

 

The suppression is Ok as far as fashion currently dictates.  If you like that sort of thing :).

 

The arm hole has a bit of excess at the front, from about midway down, that you could scoop out. The sleeve could be scooped out a great deal in the lower half, although you would probably play with that a bit before you settle on the amount depending, as cooleb09 hints at, on how far you need to raise your arms.


Me zo ganet e-kreiz ar mor 
Teir leo er-maez


#4 Terri

Terri

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,006 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ontario Canada

Posted 16 July 2017 - 10:59 PM

Well theres not much ease and the traditional form of a shirt pattern does not make a good pattern for a garment that is so fitted. The body has more complex dimensions than a shirt pattern does and you are seeing the natural results of pushing a garment past its point of fittability. Anyhow, It is the style at the moment, so.....


Your shoulder blades are prominent and are pulling the fabric up from the chest level.
You need more length over the blades.
If you unpicked the yoke seam at the back, and let the body of the shirt drop until the drag lines were released, you might solve at least some of the fit problems.
If you did that, you could possibly then see if the back neck would move back into position, but somehow I feel that is another separate issue.
  • zanzare and Schneiderfrei like this

#5 Elsastreprincipiante

Elsastreprincipiante

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 35 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 July 2017 - 03:44 AM

Cooleb09, attached below are a couple photos with the arms raised. For my personal growth, what areas do you look at with the arms raised? Specifically, I'm interested in what I should be assessing when I look at how a shirt fits with my arms raised. Does it help you determine if there is adequate ease and mobility with the arms raised?

 

Schneiderfrei, you easily spotted my mismatched shoulders. It's actually that my left shoulder sits lower than the right due to a twice-broken clavicle many years ago. Discussing the back neck, is it possible to confirm that my collar issue is related to the back neck hole depth? The back neck depth is currently 0.6cm. On the topic of chest suppression versus armhole depth, is there a way to diagnose the culprit or should I just try two separate drafts and see which remedies the issue? I will definitely play around with removing some excess from the sleeve and body around the armhole, but I'm not certain how this relates to mobility. On a previous draft, I had what I felt was a beautifully-contoured armhole, but when I stitched on the sleeve, I felt that mobility was seriously reduced. How should a perfect sleeve-to-body seam look? I'm sure there must be some ease in there somewhere for mobility but where does that ease go when your arms are resting at your sides? I always see vertical drag lines in the front and back of shirts near the armhole and I wonder if they're there due to necessity or if it is indeed just a poor fit. Would you have any reference photos of a perfectly-fitting sleeve? I know there's a topic on this forum related to correctly-fitting shirts but I still felt uncertain about the sleeves. Finally, do you have any thoughts on how my sleeve is set in? It seems like I should set it in with the sleeve angled a bit further back due to the drag lines on the sleeve. I'm not certain how to adjust the sleeve if that really is the issue.

 

Terri, I am definitely pushing the boundaries of a men's shirt for sure. I previously made a body cast out of tape and then cut it apart. It exposed so many areas where I would need darts to properly contour a shirt. It definitely helped me to understand just what I'm trying to ask of a piece of fabric and where I have to balance fit and style. Thank you so much for the feedback on the shoulder blades. Just to clarify before I go ripping seams, should I unpick the yoke seam all the way across the back and just leave it attached to the sleeves still? And you're saying I should see some sort of drop in the back of the garment, signaling where I need to add additional fabric? In my untrained mind, I picture the yoke and back body separating leaving a concave back body. Then on my pattern I would add  in this area. I assume this would lead to excess fabric near the armholes which I should remove with a convexly-curved back body (essentially yoke-to-body darts), correct? Finally, do you have any ideas about the back neck? Is there some direction I should try to head in for diagnosing it?

 

Thank you all so much for the feedback! If I can provide any additional photos or information, just let me know.

 

up-front.jpg

 

up-back.jpg



#6 posaune

posaune

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 926 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Germany

Posted 17 July 2017 - 07:03 AM

As Terri said, a shirt draft is not the right draft for such a tight garment.
Besides your fitting difficulties derived from your posture the armhole and sleeves are a mess.
A shirt sleeve draft is nothing you can use in my opinion.
lg
posaune
  • Schneiderfrei likes this

#7 Elsastreprincipiante

Elsastreprincipiante

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 35 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 July 2017 - 07:58 AM

Posaune, which aspects of the fit concern you must in relation to an overly-tight fit or where have I strayed from the fit of a traditional shirt? I have quite a lot of suppression in the side seams, but what else draws your eye? When you mentioned the armhole and sleeves being a mess, what specific aspects do you mean? Are those fit issues related to tightness of fit? I'm not aware of how those should look properly fitted. I mentioned earlier that I don't know what sort of ease I need to have between the body and the sleeve to ensure adequate mobility and how it should look when my arm is at rest. Would you have any examples of what that area should look like? My build is fairly skinny and it feels as if without a “snug” fit, I just appear to be swimming in fabric. I really would love to see a well-fitted, traditional shirt on someone with a similar build to mine. For reference, I’m 177cm and 58kg.



#8 Terri

Terri

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,006 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ontario Canada

Posted 17 July 2017 - 12:34 PM

You can leave the yoke attached at the armhole and see what happens. You can baste in a piece of fabric along the inside of the yoke so you would have something to pin to once you separate the body from the yoke.
You may still need to separate the whole yoke, but you wont know until you try.
The sleeve needs to be dealt with separately once the body issues are improved.

#9 Elsastreprincipiante

Elsastreprincipiante

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 35 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 July 2017 - 01:22 PM

Terri, thank you very much for the direction! I'll start on that this week and see where I end up.



#10 posaune

posaune

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 926 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Germany

Posted 17 July 2017 - 08:05 PM

I can't upload anymore pics.
So look at side view right side.
You see head to waist
1. collar stands away
2. the shoulderblades are stressed horizontal and vertical
3. stress lines to waist front and back
4. a lot of fabric bunching besides the armhole front and back
5. sleeve cap is pulled up
6. the bust stressed horizontal and a bit vertical

left side
the same as right +

7. the armhole is not deep enough because of left shoulder is lower than right.

Front view

8. the shoulder point is for my taste to low for a tight fitting garment. If you want it that way
the armhole must be recut. (Which must be done anyway')
9. there could be a twad more ease over the hips.


Look how relaxed the shirt appears when you wear it open and still showing your slim body.

so I would add 5 cm (whole shirt) more ease for the next draft.
stick 0.8 cm ease in back and 1.2 in front 0.5 cm goes into armhole.
Add for the shoulderblades length; maybe 1.5 cm at CB
(straight till maybe 2/3 of yoke length (till peak of shoulder blades "hill") then tapper to 0 at armhole) as Terri wrote.

(If you can do correct the left side shoulder and armhole.
You need a left and right side pattern for this
Here you cut the armhole (Front and back) in the pattern (not yoke!) out in form of a rectangle.
You move this straight down about maybe 1.5 cm and glue it to the pattern again.
True side seam. Better maybe is it to draft a pattern with a shoulder seam (no yoke) and define the yoke after fitting).
Model your result without sleeves in. Then we look at the armhole.
lg posaune

Edited by posaune, 17 July 2017 - 08:07 PM.

  • Schneiderfrei, tombennett, Elsastreprincipiante and 1 other like this

#11 pfaff260

pfaff260

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 77 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands
  • Interests:Everything about tailoring.

Posted 18 July 2017 - 12:14 AM

Attached File  Schermafbeelding 2017-07-17 om 16.10.43.png   133.88KB   7 downloads

Maybe this can help. It's what I use. It's a draft from 1973, when clothes where tight fitted

You might add darts in the back and maybe also in the front.


  • Schneiderfrei and Futura like this

#12 pfaff260

pfaff260

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 77 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands
  • Interests:Everything about tailoring.

Posted 18 July 2017 - 12:17 AM

P.S. Rundschau uses % instead of minus.


  • Schneiderfrei and Futura like this

#13 posaune

posaune

    Pro

  • Super Pro
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 926 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Germany

Posted 18 July 2017 - 01:54 AM

If I assume that it is drafted in size 48 (Rb = 19.4 cm, Bu = 96) this would be a bust ease about 9 cm.
If in Size 50 (Rb = 20 cm, Bu = 100 cm) it is 7 cm.
I think an ease about 7 cm is tight enough for a shirt. And you can maybe use the shirt sleeve draft.
lg
posaune
  • Schneiderfrei likes this

#14 Elsastreprincipiante

Elsastreprincipiante

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 35 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 July 2017 - 09:45 AM

Pfaff260, I really appreciate the draft. Seeing this helps me gain a better understanding of the garment. I have seen similar drafts but it always helps to refresh my mind as to what the end result is. 

 

Again, if anyone has any photos demonstrating the correct fit of a shirt on a slimmer build, it would be incredibly helpful. I've been googling for a while but I haven't really been able to come up with much besides some photos of obviously-pinned shirts.



#15 lngn2

lngn2

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 106 posts

Posted 18 July 2017 - 05:40 PM

Not quite the answer but have you seen http://www.rubenbakk...e-first-place/?
  • Elsastreprincipiante likes this

#16 pfaff260

pfaff260

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 77 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands
  • Interests:Everything about tailoring.

Posted 20 July 2017 - 01:51 AM

The draft is for body height: 180

                        Chest Circumference: 104

                        neck:     41

                        Neck half width: 6,8 = 1/6 neck circumference

                        Back height : 25

                        Waist length : 45

                        Armhole depth: 24 = backheight % 1 cm

                        Lenght is 1/2 height % 12 cm

                        Back width: 21,4 = untill 100 cm 2/10 CC + 1 cm, 100cm and more 1/10 CC + 11 cm

                        Armhole diameter: 15 = 1/8 CC + 2 cm

                        Chest width: 20,8 = 2/10 CC

Hope this helps.

It's even tighter as you thought Posaune. I made this shirt out of non stretch cotton.

It feels tight, yet comfortable.

P.S. Thank you Schneiderfrei for your translation terms.


Edited by pfaff260, 20 July 2017 - 02:09 AM.


#17 Elsastreprincipiante

Elsastreprincipiante

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 35 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 July 2017 - 12:46 PM

Ingn2, I completely forgot about that article! I once read it but it was quite a while ago. I think re-reading it with a bit more knowledge really helped. 

 

On the topic of fitting a sleeve to the shirt body, does anyone have any good articles, books, or other content that really explains (maybe mathematically) how to adjust the shape of the sleeve cap and armscye accordingly. For example, I decide the front portion of the armscye contains too much fabric so I remove some - how do I know exactly how to reshape the sleeve cap to account for this? Or for example if I decide the sleeve should be set in, slightly rotated - how do I redraw the armscye accordingly? Because I don't have a ton of experience in this area, it seems like a very difficult task to make adjustments to one side and reflect those in the other.



#18 R.m.Bakker

R.m.Bakker

    Umsie

  • Super Pro
  • Pip
  • 54 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rotterdam
  • Interests:Bespoke Tailoring, Patternmaking, Shirtmaking.

Posted 21 July 2017 - 06:25 PM

That article still gets so many views. I should reallu update it as my views on things have changed massively since then. The core is still correct though.

 

Ingn2, I completely forgot about that article! I once read it but it was quite a while ago. I think re-reading it with a bit more knowledge really helped. 

 

On the topic of fitting a sleeve to the shirt body, does anyone have any good articles, books, or other content that really explains (maybe mathematically) how to adjust the shape of the sleeve cap and armscye accordingly. For example, I decide the front portion of the armscye contains too much fabric so I remove some - how do I know exactly how to reshape the sleeve cap to account for this? Or for example if I decide the sleeve should be set in, slightly rotated - how do I redraw the armscye accordingly? Because I don't have a ton of experience in this area, it seems like a very difficult task to make adjustments to one side and reflect those in the other.

The armhole should have a good shape that fits your body. Hence why usually it is recommended to fit the shirt first without sleeves set in. You observe, you recut, refit. 

 

After that is done, redraft the sleeve. Sleeve caps should not be too high if you want to be able to sew it in without a lot of trouble. If it is too high you won't get the seam allowance to fit the body (it will be too short, which causes wrinkles when you do the english seam). You can still do it, but you'd have to slash the seam allowance and overlock it, then sew it single and make a "fake" english seam.

 

Then again, sleeve caps should not be too short either, because the natural position of the sleeve in the body will be too straight. This causes wrinkles going from top outside to bottom inside near the scye. So find a sweet spot and settle for it. At some point you'll find a good way that usually works for you. 1/3 of scye -4 or -5 is something that's usually in the books as a calculation, but I find it to be too low.

 

The more you shape the sleeve cap (the curves), the more ease you get to redistribute. After all, it's ease you're adding since you're lengthening the seam. Some books say 1/3 then 2/3 going low in the 1/3 and then high in the 2/3. Then 2/3 on the back going and staying high, and then going back to the base line in the last 1/3. Some say divide front in quarters, go down 1 cm in first quarter, then back up in 2nd quarter, then go 1cm up in 3rd, then settle down to the sleeve top, then on the back divide in quarters again, go 1.5cm up in first quarter, stay 1cm high in 2nd quarter, then gradually to 0 on baseline and end of sleeve cap.

 

There are so many ways and as a longtime shirtmaker all I can really say is try to define the problem you have, and try to find a solution. So think in problems. Hey, I've got a sleeve cap that's wrinkling there and there - then think about what causes it. Then find a solution for that specific problem, not trying too much at the same time.


  • Schneiderfrei likes this

Owner at Tailored.

Experienced Bespoke Tailor, Bespoke Shirtmaker.

Check out my blog, and business, at:

 

http://www.rubenbakker.nl





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users