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No tailor has been able to figure out what the issue to my shirt is..can any of you?

shirt alteration fix mtm

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#1 teknique

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 03:40 AM

I've been trying for months to figure out what the cause of the following issue is, to no avail from various shirtmakers all telling me something different -

- "it's the midsection, too wide"
- "it's the shoulder slope"
- "it's the chest too tight"

- "too much of a drop from chest to waist"
- "it's normal"

Can someone please help me figure out what the **actual** cause of the following issue is?

 

Attached are pictures of my actual shirt, and below it are other users with similar issues. My shirt is the white one, with the larger collar.

 

The issue I'm having is **diagonal lines downwards in the midsection, appears to start from the nipples and extend downwards toward the waistline**. Please advise what the actual fix for this is? Is it the slope of the shoulders?  That seems like the most believable, but I've never heard of this specific issue being related to shoulder slope; I've only heard of drag lines in the upper chest area for that issue.  I would appreciate the help.  Here are my basic shirt measurements:

 

Yoke: 17.0"

Chest: 20.50"

Waist: 19.50"

Hip: 20.50"

 

The other pictures are of similar issues I've seen on the internet which are for dramatization if helpful.

 

Album: http://imgur.com/a/iK1W5

 

In particular, here's a picture with my arms semi-raised (at my sides) and it appears to fix the issue: http://i.imgur.com/eKEto5d.png

 

This is what leads me to believe it's the shoulder slope, but I can't be sure because every resource I've read online (such as http://propercloth.c...houlder-slope/)all mention that if the shoulder is not sloped enough, it only affects lines at the upper chest.  They don't even mention midsection.  I don't know why, but it appears nobody can figure out what's wrong.

 

Thanks

Attached Files


Edited by teknique, 20 August 2017 - 03:45 AM.


#2 Schneidergott

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 04:00 AM

I'd say your sleeves are too tight below the elbow and at the cuffs (there might also be extra length of cloth because of that) and the crown too short. That's why, when you lift your arms it reduces the issue slightly.

Doesn't look as nice but gives a lot of reach.


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#3 teknique

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 04:08 AM

I'd say your sleeves are too tight below the elbow and at the cuffs (there might also be extra length of cloth because of that) and the crown too short. That's why, when you lift your arms it reduces the issue slightly.

Doesn't look as nice but gives a lot of reach.

 

The forearm is definitely too tight, but it's not skin tight and it's something I have already noted to be taken care of in the next iteration.  How would my forearm tightness affect the mid-section drag lines that the topic is about?  I appreciate the insight, but that's another issue altogether, and doesn't seem to affect the main concern I made the topic about, or am I confused?  Seems easily fixable, but definitely wouldn't affect the mid-section...



#4 posaune

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 04:15 AM

Do a pic with a side view.
I would say the back is a bit too wide and this surplus is needed in front over the bust. But it may be that you shoulder bones are rotated
a bit in the front. So you have little deepening between bust muscle and shoulder. In a coat it will not show because of the plack.
The shirt is tight over the hip. It sits there. What about the collar? Please button it up. looks a bit tight for the neckhole
lg
posaune

#5 teknique

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 04:36 AM

Do a pic with a side view.
I would say the back is a bit too wide and this surplus is needed in front over the bust. But it may be that you shoulder bones are rotated
a bit in the front. So you have little deepening between bust muscle and shoulder. In a coat it will not show because of the plack.
The shirt is tight over the hip. It sits there. What about the collar? Please button it up. looks a bit tight for the neckhole
lg
posaune

 

Side view: http://imgur.com/a/alWqF

 

I realize the neck is an issue; that's not entirely what I'm looking to fix.  All the other issues I can easily distinguish on my own (such as neck size, forearm size)...it's primarily the drag lines I cannot fix.  I appreciate all the help from everyone so far, but I really don't want to confuse myself from the topic at hand which is primarily trying to fix the mid-section diagonal drag lines.  Once that is fixed, we can move on to other issues.  But you can imagine my concern when I'm posting to figure out a specific issue, and the responses I get relate to forearm size???  Not that that isn't helpful, but it's confusing as anything for a guy who's not entirely a tailor to be told forearm issues when I'm trying to figure out the mid-section issues..if it doesn't relate to that in particular, I'm going to be confused now thinking I need to adjust the forearm and neck size to fix my midsection!

 

Thanks!



#6 Learner

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 05:49 AM

Is this a shirt that you've made yourself, or is it made-to-measure?



#7 posaune

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 06:11 AM

Well, if you look for fitting issues you begin at the top and go down.
If there is something too tight it may tear the shirt up.
Sorry, that I did confuse you
posaune

#8 dpcoffin

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 06:32 AM

You've actually already answered your own question with the first image in the group I've collected below; it's a protruding chest that hasn't been adjusted for at the sides and shoulders. It's NOT a shoulder slope issue, altho that can aggravate it; doesn't seem to be happening in this case. But it IS happening in the one image of another body in a blue shirt at your image site.

 

Any sort of protrusion will create similar drag lines, as you can see in the next 4 images of the same yellow plaid shirt, first on a figure with a protruding upper back, then on one with a protruding bust.

 

The first image on the bottom row is the same female figure in a shirt that is much looser around the bust, where no such drag lines occur, since there's plenty of circumference room for the fabric to drape smoothly downward over the protrusion.

 

You've tightened the circumference, from the shoulders on down, quite a lot, which is what is causing the protrusion to strain outward against the circumference. The tightness is especially a problem across your chest to the armholes.

 

The last four images show how careful, progressive adjustment of the side seams can reduce similar drag lines and eventually eliminate them, by both loosening the sides and shifting them up and down in relation to one another until everything is falling smooth. Smoothly following the contours of your chest while also keeping the circumference snug ultimately will require some shaping in front, from a seam or dart, and creating a dart certainly helps smooth the fabric around any protrusion (that's what they're for!), but you can also find a good compromise without darts if you let the fabric tell you just how loose the circumference needs to be to eliminate the drag lines. The yoke may also need to be extended  bit, but with a lot of care and patience, you can find the sweet spots. Hard to do on yourself, tho!

 

As you can see, the adjustments should be done with the body pieces attached to the yoke, but left open below the armholes, and of course before the sleeves are attached.

 

Untitled8.png?dl=1


Edited by dpcoffin, 20 August 2017 - 06:52 AM.

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#9 teknique

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 06:52 AM

You've actually already answered your own question with the first image in the group I've collected below; it's a protruding chest that hasn't been adjusted for at the sides and shoulders. It's NOT a shoulder slope issue, altho that can aggravate it; doesn't seem to be happening in this case. But it IS happening in the one image of another body in a blue shirt at your image site.

 

Any sort of protrusion will create similar drag lines, as you can see in the next 4 images of the same yellow plaid shirt, first on a figure with a protruding upper back, then on one with a protruding bust.

 

The first image on the bottom row is the same female figure in a shirt that is much looser around the bust, where no such drag lines occur, since there's plenty of circumference room for the fabric to drape smoothly downward over the protrusion.

 

You've tightened the circumference, from the shoulders on down, quite a lot, which is what is causing the protrusion to strain outward against the circumference.

 

The last four images show how careful, progressive adjustment of the side seams can reduce similar drag lines and eventually eliminate them, by both loosening the sides and shifting them up and down in relation to one another until everything is falling smooth. Smoothly following the contours of your chest while also keeping the circumference snug ultimately will require some shaping in front, from a seam or dart, but you can also find a good compromise without darts if you let the fabric tell you just how loose the circumference needs to be to eliminate the drag lines. The yoke may also need to be extended  bit, but with a lot of care and patience, you can find the sweet spots. Hard to do on yourself, tho!

 

As you can see, the adjustments should be done with the body pieces attached to the yoke, but left open below the armholes, and of course before the sleeves are attached.

 

Untitled8.png?dl=1

 

So the solution would be the following:

 

- Extend yoke +0.25" - 0.50"

- Take in side seams below chest varying amounts (perhaps, disproportionately in certain areas) to achieve a clean looking front.  In a sense, would this mean that in some areas the circumference will be larger and smaller than in others?  Varying circumference all the way down to the hip?

 

Thanks!



#10 dpcoffin

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 07:05 AM

Here's a few more examples, first to show how useful darts are (they can be pivoted around and left unstitched, such as straight down from the protrusion for a wider waist, or to the shoulder, then allowed to extend the yoke), then to show that careful adjustment can result in quite snug circumference with no drag lines even on a very prominent male chest.

 

Untitled9.png?dl=1

 

Untitled10.png?dl=1



#11 teknique

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 07:16 AM

Here's a few more examples, first to show how useful darts are (they can be pivoted around and left unstitched, such as straight down from the protrusion for a wider waist, or to the shoulder, then allowed to extend the yoke), then to show that careful adjustment can result in quite snug circumference with no drag lines even on a very prominent male chest.

 

Untitled9.png?dl=1

 

Untitled10.png?dl=1

 

I'm sorry, I may just be terribly inexperienced, and I apologize for that, but I'm having a hard time actually creating bullet points for what I should do to fix the issue.  Can you advise if the below is what you're saying?

 

- Extend yoke (+0.25 - 0.50")

- Add darts in the back?



#12 dpcoffin

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 07:50 AM

 

So the solution would be the following:

 

- Extend yoke +0.25" - 0.50"

- Take in side seams below chest varying amounts (perhaps, disproportionately in certain areas) to achieve a clean looking front.  In a sense, would this mean that in some areas the circumference will be larger and smaller than in others?  Varying circumference all the way down to the hip?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Well, here's the problem: What I'm showing are some results of my current extended explorations into the shirt-draping process, in which the solutions are all achieved by moving fabric around on a figure and altering how the pieces connect by constantly repinning the seams, then tracing the resulting seams to capture them however they turn out to be shaped when all finally looks good. 

 

What you're asking is how you should reshape the seams to get the drape to look good, exactly the opposite sequence. IOW, you're trying to skip ahead to the seam shapes without doing the draping (or what others here might simply call the "fitting")—understandably, since that would be easy!

 

Unfortunately, I can't tell you. I can help you to do, or at least perhaps to understand, the draping process, but I can only roughly estimate how the seams will wind up being altered, and I know from experience how unlikely simple seam changes are to work exactly right first time tried (since they aren't perfectly customized to your figure but are generic approximations), and are also likely to introduce slightly different problems in the process, which can be deeply confusing to beginners! Working directly with the fabric keeps you constantly aware of how each change you make affects the entire result, decidedly unlike flat-pattern seam-shape changes.

 

I'd be very willing to help, either here or via private email, by further describing the draping process I use and by commenting on in-progress photo results if you'd care to try it. Completely alone, it'll be slow, but with even an untrained friend willing to follow directions and pin carefully, it's considerably easier.

 

Short of that, here's a quick, get-started overview. Extending the yoke right away might be a place to start, but if I were there, I wouldn't. I'd start with another muslin, single front and back joined to the existing yoke, no collar stand, slashed neckline in front just enough to slip over your head, with two-inch side seam allowances, side seams extended up into the armhole at least an inch, and one-inch armhole seam allowances on top of that, sides open and probably also the front/yoke seams open, but pinned, about half-way from the armholes towards the neck, because I might want to eventually arrange some dart fullness there. Then I'd start cautiously pinning the side seams to see how tight I could go before the drag lines start, and then whether I could shift these into the front armhole as dart fullness as I pinned closer.

 

That would be a good start from my perspective. More if you want, or if no one else has some seam-line reshaping advice you'd rather pursue.



#13 dpcoffin

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 07:53 AM

 

I'm sorry, I may just be terribly inexperienced, and I apologize for that, but I'm having a hard time actually creating bullet points for what I should do to fix the issue.  Can you advise if the below is what you're saying?

 

- Extend yoke (+0.25 - 0.50")

- Add darts in the back?

 

No apologies needed—ever—for being inexperienced enough to need to ask a question; that's the point, right?:)


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#14 peterle

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 08:33 PM

I´m pretty sure with these pics nobody can really tell what the problem is.

 

We need pics with a fully closed shirt. We need the shirt untucked. We  need profile pics. We don´t need raised arms. We need horizontal and vertical lines in the background, tiles or a doorframe are good. Otherwise it is impossible to tell where the problem starts.

 

I see  strange bulges in the shoulder area but I can ´t be sure wether this is your body or just the open collar. For me it seems that it is a ridge/ heavy fold from shoulder to shoulder across the back neck.

And no, this is not a different issue we can solve later. When fitting You always have to start with a fitting shoulder area. Everything else can be adressed later.

 

The only thing I can tell for sure at the moment is, the shirt is too tight at the hips and the right shoulder is a bit lower.


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#15 teknique

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 01:52 PM

I´m pretty sure with these pics nobody can really tell what the problem is.

 

We need pics with a fully closed shirt. We need the shirt untucked. We  need profile pics. We don´t need raised arms. We need horizontal and vertical lines in the background, tiles or a doorframe are good. Otherwise it is impossible to tell where the problem starts.

 

I see  strange bulges in the shoulder area but I can ´t be sure wether this is your body or just the open collar. For me it seems that it is a ridge/ heavy fold from shoulder to shoulder across the back neck.

And no, this is not a different issue we can solve later. When fitting You always have to start with a fitting shoulder area. Everything else can be adressed later.

 

The only thing I can tell for sure at the moment is, the shirt is too tight at the hips and the right shoulder is a bit lower.

 

After careful consideration, I believe the issue is formed primarily by my pecks being large enough to push the chest fabric forward enough that it pulls the midsection forward, hence the diagonal downward drag lines.  I believe this will be solved by adding fabric to the chest/mid-section area to allow for ease from the pecks and not push it forward so much.



#16 peterle

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 07:39 PM

I don´t think so.

The diagonal lines in the front are only visible in the tucked version. Maybe you tuck the shirt in by shifting the fronts to the sides.

 

When the shirt is untucked, there are  just shorter diagonal lines below the armhole . On your right side it´s more severe because of the low shoulder.

 

The bulging back and the belly section of the front makes me think you probably have a forward hip posture. Hard to say without porper side view pics.



#17 teknique

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 11:18 AM

I don´t think so.

The diagonal lines in the front are only visible in the tucked version. Maybe you tuck the shirt in by shifting the fronts to the sides.

 

When the shirt is untucked, there are  just shorter diagonal lines below the armhole . On your right side it´s more severe because of the low shoulder.

 

The bulging back and the belly section of the front makes me think you probably have a forward hip posture. Hard to say without porper side view pics.

 

There has to be a simple solution to this problem.  On some shirts, I see it so obviously, yet on others and on other people, it's as if it doesn't even exist.  I figure this is the place to go to figure out what's causing it...yet nobody can figure it out even still!



#18 dpcoffin

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 12:30 PM

 

There has to be a simple solution to this problem.  On some shirts, I see it so obviously, yet on others and on other people, it's as if it doesn't even exist.  I figure this is the place to go to figure out what's causing it...yet nobody can figure it out even still!

 

 

There's only one reliably consistent, simple solution to fitting problems that I know of: Switch to non-fitting garments:)

 

The next level of simplicity is to get somebody with some experience to do it for you. Not necessarily simple to find such a person, but disagreements about what's causing your problem don't mean that nobody has figured it out, nor that nobody you’ve asked is capable of solving it, nor that there's only one way to solve it. Have you let anybody else try to fit you in a shirt?

 

Or, if you're determined to do it yourself (NOT a simple process that I've ever noticed!), have you tried following any of the advice you've gotten here yet? Better pictures would help anyone trying to help you.






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