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Pattern adjustments for balance


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#19 posaune

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 06:14 AM

No this is not good.
But shoulder point is in good position. (I can't measure I just see some photos)
The form of the armhole for a shirt is realtively straight.
It seams to me that your front armhole reaches over the Armvortittsline (vertical line in your draft touching the armhole)
and curves into the Bb (see side view) at places where it should not. see side view.
But I may be wrong here.
If your sleeve is too tight I fear the armhole is tight too. Because of the t-shirt underneath not easy to tell.
(You can choose a longer or a wider armhole. Maybe take away at back 0.5 cm and add it to the armhole diameter or enlarge the diameter 1 cm) )
You will not get easy 2 cm more cap circ into the armhole if you use a shirt fabric. Then you'll have about 4 cm ease)
Rip the sleeve and try it on at right side. Grab under the arm with your 4 fingers (where the hinge is connecting arm to the body) thumb up pointing to shoulderpoint,
and mark along an armhole line. Take a Burmester-curve (or whatever curve you use)and draft the seam line using your marker.
Check (with your fingers) the distance from armpit to shirt armhole. Should be 2 - 2.5 cm at least.
And forget the gusset in this form please. It ain't so easy.
How long is your front seam line and back seamline of the armhole? Circ is 53 as you wrote.
lg
posaune
(This Vortrittline is very important, you can level it with a plump line. It is like a longitude of the human body.)

#20 thrawn235

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 08:16 AM

I've tried to do what you said with the thumb, but its probably very inacurate.

I came up with the following draft

Attached File  IMG_1904.JPG   73.97KB   3 downloads

(the umodified, blue version, is the one from before the sleeve version)

 

 

I've checked the depth of the armohole and it was only about 2cm under the armpit, so i lowered it in the new draft.

 

On the new one(red), both back and front armohole seams are 26cm. but taking the shifted yoke seam into account, it should be 28 in the front and 24 in the back. (already subtracted the 1.5cm from the yoke dart)

(That would be a combined circ of 52cm. Guess i was 1cm of the last time.)

 

Haven't made a new muslin yet, I just want to make sure i'm on the right path.


Edited by thrawn235, 06 September 2017 - 08:18 AM.


#21 posaune

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 07:46 PM

No.
You did well in back but not in front. The curve must go through the point where armvortrittsline meets the armhole.
Otherwise you take fabric out where it is needed.
The yoke has nothing to do with the measurements for the sleeve - it is measured always from side seam up to shoulderpoint.
The yoke is more or less a design object.I would leave the dart open, I think you do not need it. Your pin buddy did good work.
I have in the address
http://www.mediafire...45de3s/hemd.png
saved a pic.I have done a draft with your measurements (not altered for front length a.s.o.)
I have in the armhole curve (blue circ 56. 8) and the resulting sleeve. The cap height is 13.5 the width is 48 cm.
The red is the new armhole. The red circ is 60 cm.
lg
posaune
you do not need to do a new muslin. Patch some fabric under the armhole and cut it new.

#22 thrawn235

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 05:23 AM

I gues it does make sense to not cut over the Armvortrittsline, I have just never even thought about it.

 

I've modified the pattern, as close as i could to your one.

But how you get 60cm armhole circ is a mystery to me. I cant make it wider (Armvortrittsline), i cant make it deeper (its about 3cm under the armpit) and the shoulder point is also fixed.

I did the best i could, but i'm still only at 53cm.

 

Also drew a new Sleeve, I didnt have to add anything this time, its pretty much exactly what the rundschau plan called for.

came out with 13cm cap height again.

Its still remarkebly close to the one i had (minus the 2cm strip that i had to add before...)

And without the gusset this time

 

I marked the original Armvortrittsline in blue, its not vertical anymore since the balance adjustment though.

 

Attached File  pattern.JPG   81.21KB   1 downloads


Edited by thrawn235, 07 September 2017 - 05:50 AM.


#23 thrawn235

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 05:27 AM

After modifying the muslin i got this:

 

Attached File  front.JPG   62.8KB   1 downloadsAttached File  side.JPG   52.62KB   1 downloadsAttached File  back.JPG   31.01KB   1 downloads

 

I've marked the seam in blue, since its really hard to see now.

 

Also no undershirt this time.

 

 

I forgot to lower the right side, thats why the front looks so bad, but i know how to fix that now. (would just have been a lot of work to rip the sleeve out again and sew everything back together)

 

 

the creases on the front of the sleeve are still there :(


Edited by thrawn235, 07 September 2017 - 05:32 AM.


#24 posaune

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 09:56 PM

O dear, it looks worse than before.
Now to make it clear, if you wear a t-shirt every time underneath we will fit over a t-shirt. Your shirt will need more width
and more length in comparison to an average draft. So put your t-shirt on again.
(The armvortittline will always be plumb it is a body landmark used in a pattern. the skeleton you built on)
As we see in side view the sleeve is pulled up to the shoulder. Your arms have some muscles protruding there over the biceps)
The sleeve stands away at the hand and is angled.
we see a kink in the front armhole. But I do not see the armhole as is. I think the armhole should run from blue line from top then
in center of old and blue seam into the notch. But the pattern looks okay.
The neck in front looks a bit tight to me.

Now you have 3 possiblities you can a) enlarge the shoulder and lower the sleeve cap b) or enlarge the sleeve cap c) or both.
Possibility a) just let out about 1 cm at continuing shoulderline (not that crooked line).
Visually gives this a larger shoulder part - more the V-Look.
Or b) the cap height - cut along biceps line across and up to the top. let. Du not cut through.
Sew a piece of fabric (in grain) under the lower part; width as sleeve - length 3 cm more than cap height).
Try the shirt on with the basted sleeve. The cut will open and it will gap length and - I think -width wise.
Maybe your buddy is there and can fix otherwise use post-its to mark how much and where.
In c) you do both. (Take your pic and draw the silhouette in you want to create, estimate the shoulder length)
Most of the folds will be gone. It can now be that you must rotate the sleeve a bit to the shoulder but that is to be seen.
lg
posaune

#25 thrawn235

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 12:42 AM

 

 

Now to make it clear, if you wear a t-shirt every time underneath we will fit over a t-shirt. Your shirt will need more width
and more length in comparison to an average draft. So put your t-shirt on again.

Will do, I thought it might possibly be interesting to see the shirt not snagging on the undershirt. Sometimes there is a considerable amount of friction. But i have to admit, I doesnt seem to disturb the Shirt as much as i thought.

 

 

 

(The armvortittline will always be plumb it is a body landmark used in a pattern. the skeleton you built on)

I understand, but how do you know the correct angle after the front has been rotated ?

 

 

 

I think the armhole should run from blue line from top then
in center of old and blue seam into the notch. But the pattern looks okay.

I havent marked it on the new pattern but thats pretty much what i did.

 

 

 

The neck in front looks a bit tight to me.

To fix that, would it be as simple as adding maybe 0.75cm at the front neck (and connect it in a straight line to the hem) ?

 

 

 

For the arm fix, i think i like the shoulder point where it is now, so i tried the sleeve modification.

Maybe i misunderstood you i cut along the red lines:

 

Attached File  pattern.JPG   34.58KB   1 downloads

 

But im not sure how to attach a piece of fabric underneath. Should i put it in like the blue section, just basting the top line ?

I've just pinned it in for a test (green dot)

The sleeve did open a lot (just length, not width)

but the gaping was massive, i would have to add maybe 8-9cm In there. That would be a resulting cap height of over 20cm !

Can that be right ?

 

The sleeve had way less creases after it though. and the biceps line was basically horizontal.

is the horizontal line under the cap the biceps line?

 

 

Also, thanks for all the help again. without the it, i would have no chance at all to ever get this right :)


Edited by thrawn235, 09 September 2017 - 12:49 AM.


#26 posaune

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:12 AM

No you understood right. Exact.
The biceps line is not drawn in. It depends on the arm and its muscles. Mostly about 4 cm under the cap height line.
You can measure were the bulk sits.
The big cap height: let's say it is not wrong because your shirt is tight (for a shirt).
If it would have more ease the shoulder point would be more out and the sleeve cap could be lower and the sleeve would be wider.
you have always to weigh one against the other.
lg
posaune

#27 thrawn235

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 02:08 AM

Ok, one more question:

 

I've tried to make a sleeve pattern with 20cm cap height, but even though the proportions are different now, i think the resulting sleeve would be way to tight.

To get a bigger sleeve i would need a bigger arm hole, but other then lowering the armhole (or rather the part under the armpit) there is nothing i can do. Or is there?

 

Is it even a good idea to continue like that or should i make the shoulder wider ?


Edited by thrawn235, 09 September 2017 - 02:09 AM.


#28 posaune

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 10:38 PM

How much biceps width do you need?

In the bespoke taylor's forum I have explained a method how to draft a sleeve with the measurements of front and back armhole.
If it interests you have a look. (aware: A bit long!)
I think part of your failure here is how you treaded the shoulder slant. But I did not understand it so I may err.
Nevertheless sleeve is too tight.
But what you can you do? I would shift 0.7 cm into Bb and take this away at Rb. This move the armhole out a bit of front.
I would go down 0.7 cm (Rh) and add to Ad 1.5 cm.
And remeasure and look where you will land now. You will not get this cap height, but you will not need it when the sleeve and armhole is wider.
15 - 16 cm cap height will be enough.
lg
posaune
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#29 thrawn235

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 05:36 AM

SO, after quite some tinkering, i came up with this:

Attached File  IMG_2093.JPG   54.23KB   2 downloadsAttached File  IMG_2092.JPG   48.62KB   1 downloadsAttached File  IMG_2091.JPG   42.21KB   1 downloads

(and next post)

 

The arms look way better, but my left side looks a liitle worse, dont exactly know why.

also there are these vertical creases on the sleeves now, could that be because i eased the arms in quite a lot (sleeve seam is 4cm longer than armskye seam) ?

 

 

On the picture with raised arms, there is also a fold an the back visible that looks kind of ugly. 

Edit:

just saw that its not really visble,

Its a fold that starts behind the arm somewhere in the shoulder and runs behind the side seam downwards, it maks the torso looks wider then it really is. when i have time, i'll post a picture of it

 

Edit2:

just noticed that it is really easy to see on the back picture


Edited by thrawn235, 15 September 2017 - 05:48 AM.


#30 thrawn235

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 05:36 AM

Attached File  IMG_2090.JPG   49.63KB   3 downloads



#31 posaune

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 04:02 AM

Okay.
Now: if you make a shirt your sleeve and shirt will ever have some vertical folds.
This is because of the low cap height and therefore excess fabric folding at the armpit.
You had the height cap and there were no folds but the sleeve was way too tight.
It is always a balance of the what and how.
A sleeve shirt is cut to give you good movement - so you have to have a good back width:
This is because you reach mostly into front with your arms.
(I do 2 pleats into back coming from the hem and spreading at yoke level about 3 cm for this, bodice stays relatively slim)
A low sleeve cap gives you more fabric in width for moving your arms up and down and
provide you with an angle: "sleeve hanging from shoulder is not so steep".
BUT it will give you folds when the arms hang down, because there is fabric under the armpit.

The back (at armholes) should roll at bit in the crease there - as the front should too. Yours do not.
So I assume the sleeve is too tight over your biceps. I think there is not enough fabric and the sleeves gets pulled.

The front (bodice) looks now overall nearly okay.
And the position of front armhole is better. Maybe another tit, if you look from side view there is a little curve, where it should be none.

The origin of the folds in the left sleeve are there because of the ease in the cap - maybe distributed nearly the top?
In a shirt sleeve you have not much ease in the cap; more in the biceps I think 6-8cm.
Grap sleeve at biceps line and look how much you can grap between 2 fingers.

long things short - I would cut the sleeve at center and long how it spreads.
If nothing gapes - I would let the sleeve fastened at top and rip the armhole seam and look how the armhole length(?)
and the sleeve cap length correspond.
I'm a bit fishy here because I can not lay my fingers on the spot.
lg posaune

#32 thrawn235

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 12:59 AM

 

 

The back (at armholes) should roll at bit in the crease there - as the front should too. Yours do not.

 

I dont really know what you mean with "roll". I've read the term before, But i dont know how it is supposed to look like.

 

 

 

 

long things short - I would cut the sleeve at center and long how it spreads.
If nothing gapes - I would let the sleeve fastened at top and rip the armhole seam and look how the armhole length(?)

I've cut the sleeve vertically. but i does not gape.

What do you mean by armhole length ?

 

 

The problem that i seem to have is, that the seam in the front is  a little tight. The sleeve is fine, and the front is also wide enough. Its just that the seam itself "cuts" in a little bit.

Its not tight in the armpit. and also not so much in the back. just the front, and just the seam itself.  Its a bit strange...


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#33 posaune

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 03:19 AM


I see a little "out" curving from side view. It is at center armhole seam. (It was worse before) And I see this in the back too.
The shirt armhole is quite straight. Your back armhole looks a bit round for me.
If you rip the whole seam, let it fastened on top and put the shirt on, you see how the sleeve wants to be
if it is allowed to hang free. Compare it with the armhole.
I assumed the armhole could have more length. But this is fishing not knowing. There is a limit what I can see from a pic.

If the front armhole seam presses against the body open the seam only there and look what it does. Maybe release it a bit at the shoulder (let out 1 cm)

rolling: when there is (reserve)ease it should not show. It should roll into the armhole - parallel to the seam
So looking nicely and tidy but if needed it is there.

There is a truth in the saying: Always first the armhole then the sleeve.
lg
posaune
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#34 jeffrey2117

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 06:53 AM

I made a new pattern (i startet before reading your answer posaune, so i couldn't do exactly what you suggested. If my attempt doesnt work out. I'll make a new one, doing exactly what you said)

 

I remeassured myself:

Height = 176cm

Chest = 105cm

Waist = 99cm

Neck = 43cm

Seat = 112 cm

Back height (Rh) = 24

Back length (Rl) = 46

Front length(down to waist) = 60 (probably inaccurate)

Back width (Rb) = 19

Front width (Bb) = 21

Armscye width? (Ad) = N/A

 

Calculated (no ease):

Height = N/A

Chest = N/A

Waist = N/A

Neck = N/A

Seat = N/A

Back height (Rh) = 22.5

Back length (Rl) = 44

Front length(down to chestline) = 22

Back width (Rb) = 20

Front width (Bb) = 20

Armscye width? (Ad) = 13.5

 

 

Also, I took some pictures without the shirt, so you guys can see my posture:

attachicon.giffront-no_shirt.JPGattachicon.gifside-no_shirt.JPGattachicon.gifback-no_shirt.JPG

Hello Thrawn235,  

 

    I usually take a overarm measure and compare with chest measure to check the shoulder/chest to check the proportions to help identify any concerns or pattern issues in the chest, shoulder, blade areas.

 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Jeffrey 2117


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"An intelligent man knows he is ignorant, a ignorant man knows he is intelligent".

#35 thrawn235

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 02:55 AM

 

 

If the front armhole seam presses against the body open the seam only there and look what it does. Maybe release it a bit at the shoulder (let out 1 cm)

 

Im afraid that, if i do this, the creases under the arms/under chest (marked on the second picture) would get worse if i did that.

 

 

 

 

   I usually take a overarm measure and compare with chest measure to check the shoulder/chest to check the proportions to help identify any concerns or pattern issues in the chest, shoulder, blade areas.

 thanks, but i dont really understand what you mean with overam measure. from the neck over the shoulder down to the wrist ?

 

 

I've made a new test. this time i took the sides in and added darts. (not yet in the pattern)

I've added a yoke, collar and cuffs. (has to be tried too eventually :) )

I also did my best to do what posaune suggested. But i think the problem is still there. albeit to a lower extend.

 

I've marked the main problems (in my opinion anyway) in the second picture.

 

what i have identified:

1. the shoulder seam is to long now that the collar is on. i think i have to make the neckhole wider

2. Still have the creases under the chest a little bit. maybe i have to lower the shoulder more ?

3. the cuffs are too tight

 

(4.) not really a problem but i have put two 3cm darts in the back and there still is a lot of fabrik. especially now with the box pleat. what is the widest dart that one can take out?

 

 

I hope this Imgur link works. I like to avoid making 4 posts just for images.

 

https://imgur.com/a/V7SuU


Edited by thrawn235, 21 September 2017 - 02:56 AM.


#36 Learner

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 06:09 AM

 thanks, but i dont really understand what you mean with overam measure. from the neck over the shoulder down to the wrist ?

 

 

 

If you use the Forum search feature, you'll find that there are 5 posts in which the overarm measure is discussed.  

 

Basically, it means measuring around the entire body including the arms, at the depth of scye level.  

 

There isn't really any useful information about precisely how this measurement should be utilized to modify the pattern, but, in any case, I don't think it's particularly applicable here.  

 

It seems that it's currently employed by MTM manufacturers to determine whether the size of a customer's arms indicates that they need a larger block than their chest measurement suggests.

 

In the case of shirts, if you need to widen the sleeve, you lower the cap height and/or increase the amount of ease.  If you watch old movies in which men are depicted in their shirt sleeves - 12 ANGRY MEN is an obvious example - you'll see that it used to be quite common for the sleeve to be shirred into the yoke  Alternatively, here's a contemporary example where a lot of ease has been shirred in as a style feature.

 

I think that you have put too much slope in the shoulders, possibly without lowering the depth of scye line enough, and you need to widen the front and narrow the back.  In your earlier posts, you identified the fact that you needed extra width in the front and less in the back, but when you made your balance modifications as depicted in this image -

 post-7536-0-55366000-1504354709.jpg

 

- you took width away from the front and added it to the back again.

 

Overall, some of the principles that you've employed aren't best suited to shirts.  You can't really crooken or straighten a shirt in the way that you can a coat, because convention dictates that the centre front stays on the straight grain all the way up to the neckhole, and the distance from the centreline to the neckpoint is basically defined by the width of your neck.


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