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Shoulder font coverage of suit front


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#1 mrmanners

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 04:41 AM

Hello all,

I'm wondering what the optimal size and shape of the "suit front" in relation to the armscye area is.

To clarify, looking at the picture below (which I've appropriated from Jefferyd...hope you don't mind Jeffery), the chest of the suit seems to cover his right shoulder front quite a bit. I imagine that in reaching the arm forward, there would be some strain in the area of the finished suit.

Posted Image

I suppose that in this particular suit, because it's in an intermediate stage, the cloth in the area was later trimmed down to better match the curvature of the area.

However, in all the suits that I own and in almost all that I see out on the street, the "chest of the suit" (sorry, don't know the correct terminology) overlaps into the front of the shoulder significantly, as crudely shown by the purple line on the picture below.

Posted Image

I'm curious if it might be better from a comfort and mobility point of view to cut the scye more in the shape of the green line?

This question is probably a bit more complicated than I'm making it out to be, but I'm curious how that area should be cut for those of us in pursuit of a clean chest with more mobility of the arms.

#2 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 05:03 AM

Your observations regarding the front being unnecessarily extended onto the arm/ biceps are correct.
For some inexplicable reason most RTW manufacturers have decided to cut their coats that way.
And yes, it is preferable to cut the front according to the green line.
Sadly, having this altered afterwards is either very expensive or simply impossible (cutting away some material at the front armhole will increase it's size a bit, so there might not be enough in the sleeve to let it out).
Also keep in mind that bespoke armholes are usually cut higher.
For more on that subject read this!

The relation of the front to armhole depends on the style you choose, or, in case of RTW, how much your body measures differ from the coat's.

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#3 Nishijin

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 05:31 AM

Here, some coats from parisian house Cifonelli, where you can see the armhole follows your green line :
Posted Image
Source : L'Internaute
http://www.paulgrassart.com

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#4 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 05:59 AM

I find the more high-end the company (RTW) the better the shape!

RTW coats are cut for a variety of proportions within the same range of measurements. So a size 50 (body chest girth 100cm) will fit a man with chest 48 to 52, depending on the waist girth.
So if you have 100cm chest girth and a wide back, you might need size 52 to get your back into the coat. But that also means that the fronts may be too wide for you, resulting in the fronts staying even more on the biceps.
I'm afraid regular MTM won't do the trick, since it is based on the RTW pattern and you'll get almost the same shape of the fronts and that deep armhole.
I know that, for example, Steed offers a MTM (or semi-bespoke) with much more options, including a higher armhole, which is essential for the comfort you're looking for.

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#5 jcsprowls

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 07:34 AM

What you don't know about Jeffrey's coat is that it includes seam allowance and inlay. What you see is a baste fitting. The final seam of the shoulder will be chalked on and the excess inlay, seam allowance and padding trimmed away before the sleeve is draft and hung into the shoulder line. The edges of the fabric you see, currently, will not be the same in the finished garment.

The green line you have on the illustration would result in long/extended shoulder with diminished range of motion, requiring a deeper scye. If you want a fitted chest (i.e. no drape) and a greater range of mobility, the shoulder seam needs to be located closer to the nude anatomy (i.e. acromion process) and the underpart of the scye seam needs to finish about 5/8" below the nude armpit.

RE: RTW. Yes, higher-end products tend to have better fit. They also tend to be sold at specialty retailers with alterations tailors on staff who will assist you with fitting and altering the garments to fit. If you want a style that has a fitted chest and high armscye, you'll need to look for brands aimed at the contemporary menswear (19-24 year old) market.
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#6 Martin Stall

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 07:50 AM

I was going to add something but I'm currently feeling particularly mean-spirited about profitism. So I won't.
Except: well-spotted, mrmanners. :good:
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#7 mrmanners

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 04:30 AM

Schneidergott and Nishijin: Thanks for your replies. I actually have read Martin's blog post a while back and it's the best article I've encountered on armholes for the layman. BTW those Cifonellis look gorgeous.

jcsprowls: I assumed that Jeffery's finished jacket would have much different edges. I understand what you're saying about the underpart of the scye seam, but what you're saying is that the top of the green line would have come closer to the edge of the clavicle? In other words, the green line would have to be straighter instead of angling out towards the deltoid?

Martin: I don't get the reference about profitism - is this a reference to something happening in another thread?

#8 Martin Stall

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 07:03 AM

Nah, I'm just tired of seeing so many badly made products (clothes and otherwise) that have suffered loss of quality (if ever they had quality) due to the eternal need for higher profit margins. I was in a fairly foul mood when I wrote that. Nothing to see here, carry on :)
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#9 jcsprowls

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:23 AM

Like this.

Attached Files


Edited by jcsprowls, 02 July 2010 - 09:24 AM.

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#10 mrmanners

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 11:34 PM

Martin: I guess that's just the nature of the world we live in today - appealing to the lowest common denominator. Guess that's the natural evolution of capitalism. But it doesn't mean that other business models can't thrive as well.

jcsprowls: Thanks for that illustration - it really clears the point up. But I wonder if a jacket constructed along those lines wouldn't be too narrow? For example, the picture below shows a fairly narrow shoulder and chest. Even given the narrow physique of the gentleman, the jacket looks like it could use a bit of width across the top, no?

Posted Image

#11 Martin Stall

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 01:45 AM

Capitalism... Where's Marx when you need him :Big Grin:
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Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#12 Sator

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 02:17 AM

Viva La Revolución!

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Note the three piece lounge suit, and the old world courtesy he had of removing his hat when addressing the masses.

#13 jcsprowls

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 02:36 AM

I wonder if a jacket constructed along those lines wouldn't be too narrow

Now you're in the realm of design. Technically, the sketch is correct. If you want to extend the shoulder a bit for styling, that can be done. But, you sacrifice some range of motion.

the jacket looks like it could use a bit of width across the top, no?

Again, a matter of styling and design. If you want a fitted chest, you will also have a fitted shoulder.

Edited by jcsprowls, 03 July 2010 - 02:48 AM.

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#14 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 09:56 PM

Martin: I guess that's just the nature of the world we live in today - appealing to the lowest common denominator. Guess that's the natural evolution of capitalism. But it doesn't mean that other business models can't thrive as well.

jcsprowls: Thanks for that illustration - it really clears the point up. But I wonder if a jacket constructed along those lines wouldn't be too narrow? For example, the picture below shows a fairly narrow shoulder and chest. Even given the narrow physique of the gentleman, the jacket looks like it could use a bit of width across the top, no?

Posted Image


Waist dart is mssed up, sakko ha no chest point. Bad construcion.
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www.berlinbespokesuits.com

#15 Martin Stall

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 11:20 PM

Waist dart is mssed up, sakko ha no chest point. Bad construcion.



What do you mean with "chest point"?
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#16 mrmanners

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 04:35 AM

Now you're in the realm of design. Technically, the sketch is correct. If you want to extend the shoulder a bit for styling, that can be done. But, you sacrifice some range of motion.


Again, a matter of styling and design. If you want a fitted chest, you will also have a fitted shoulder.


Thanks for your insight....I'll keep these things in mind for my next jacket.

#17 greger

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 05:52 AM

If you follow the line from the button to the seam and open that seam and let the cloth find its natural place that problem will most likely be gone. There might be two seams involved.

It is a nice looking coat.

#18 stefano

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 04:11 AM

horrible crap in my opinion look at the sleeves

Here, some coats from parisian house Cifonelli, where you can see the armhole follows your green line :
l-epaule-cifonelli-286000.jpg
Source : L'Internaute






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