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Good sleeve, bad sleeve!


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#1 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 01:29 AM

Since this is not about the construction or making of sleeves but rather the looks of them, I figured I put the thread in here.

Sleeves can influence the look and feel of a garment in many ways. But the feel part is not the subject of this thread. It's the look.

The first image is taken from a book by Cabrera, and pretty much sums the matter up:

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And yet, you'll see plenty of ill set sleeves around. High end RTW makers spend a lot of time to get their sleeves picture perfect, so why don't all the bespoke tailors do the same?

Either way, to train the eye of customer and future tailor alike, a few examples of each category:

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Italian bespoke, and not an "accident":

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This comes from a high end RTW company in Canada:

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and this from the man behind it:

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Thanks to his instructions I was able to do this:

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Sadly and for some weird reasons, not all bespoke tailors pay special attention to a correctly set sleeve, and I wonder why!
Is it because they do not care or because they cannot do better?

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This one may be the final fitting, but still those sleeves are giving me the creeps.

One of our MTM makers constantly fails to deliver a nice sleeve, which causes lots of work. The faults are endless, mostly starting with bad cutting in the first place.

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Or this "masterpiece":

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Our other maker used to be a RTW maker also, but the MTM often had problems with the sleeves:

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This last one is an example of bad operator skills and bad supervising, too!

But back to more pleasant views:

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Feel free to add examples of either "bad" or "good" sleeves. :Bring It On:

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#2 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 01:47 AM

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That is beautiful SG! One day I want to invite you back, set you up in a hotel and for a couple days you show me how you get these results. :Big Grin:
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#3 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 02:56 AM

That is beautiful SG! One day I want to invite you back, set you up in a hotel and for a couple days you show me how you get these results. :Big Grin:



The credit goes to jefferyD for showing me an easier way how to do it. Sadly, I promised not to share this "secret"! And I like to keep my promises, well, at least this one...

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#4 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 04:04 AM

If you don't want to come back to Holland just say so :p
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#5 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 06:31 AM

The credit goes to jefferyD for showing me an easier way how to do it. Sadly, I promised not to share this "secret"! And I like to keep my promises, well, at least this one...


What secret? There is no secret, 21 years ago I did that all the time. Just look into the German Books from 1952 - 1968. :drool:

The books teach you how to cut the sleeve for the armhole and one secret is to use arm hole 'Schablonen'. I have excellent ones.
You need to be able to draft an armhole in the front that match the sleeve 100%. The accuracy is about 2mm there.
With MTOC and T&C or other ancient English books books there is no way to get those results of Jeffrey.
The other secret is the sleeve head height. I don't tell you how to calculate that, this is my secret. :rofl:
www.berlinbespokesuits.com

#6 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 07:11 AM

What secret? There is no secret, 21 years ago I did that all the time. Just look into the German Books from 1952 - 1968. :drool:

The books teach you how to cut the sleeve for the armhole and one secret is to use arm hole 'Schablonen'. I have excellent ones.
You need to be able to draft an armhole in the front that match the sleeve 100%. The accuracy is about 2mm there.

The other secret is the sleeve head height. I don't tell you how to calculate that, this is my secret. :rofl:



That armhole pattern thing is something I wondered about... It is quite common in German tailoring, but what about other countries?
I've seen some really nice stuff from Italy, UK, USA and France, but I have also seen some horrible examples from those countries.

I am aware that the shape and look of a sleeve has to follow certain rules, but I think that at least the pitch and sleeve length should be spot on at the second fitting. From my own experience I know that re-cutting armhole and sleeve of a finished garment is a very tricky and not always successful adventure.

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#7 greger

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 11:14 AM

Sadly and for some weird reasons, not all bespoke tailors pay special attention to a correctly set sleeve, and I wonder why!
Is it because they do not care or because they cannot do better?



Some people clearly don't care. It is a shame to go to all the troubles of making a coat, but not really finish the job.


There are many ways and reasons to make sleeves this way or that. But, they should always do their best so it doesn't look home made.

#8 amateursarto

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 08:05 PM

The drape and pattern matchimg of that sleeve that jeffrey taught you about SG is a master piece! question: why do you guys have secrets your not willing to share? i remember reading on martin stall's blog sometime ago that he had a place where he buys great hand sewing needles, but he wouldn't say where to preserve his stock, (which I sorta understand), but why is it the same way with knowledge? is it the "johnny carson" thing? they said that johnny carson taught david letterman and jay leno everything they needed to know about late night tv hosting, but that he didn't teach them everything he knew about late night tv. in my field, home building/construction you find guys sharing tricks and knowledge and other things they've learned over the years with others; both old and young do this. this serves to elevate the craftsmanship of the trade and perpetuate its longevity; I've never heard of anybody having secrets they are unwillling to share with others. I think this is what makes me shake my head about tailors and learning to be a tailor. What's the point of doing this in a trade most of you admit is dying?
Just a head scratcher to me.....:wacko:

Edited by amateursarto, 01 August 2010 - 08:09 PM.

AMATEURSARTO

#9 posaune

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 08:14 PM

Well, he is in business and he has to eat! And he sells suits with nice sleeves.
Lg
posaune

#10 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 08:28 PM

JefferyD made me promise not to give away this "secret"!
There is more to it than meets the eye, mainly lots of work and time (trial and error) to make it look that good.

It seems that some cutters/ tailors are shying away from that extra amount of work, others don't. So why spare the first group the work?

The basics are already here on this forum, and like every tailor/ craftsman you will have to develop your own way of doing things.

http://www.cutterand...rch=1

(Perhaps it might be a good idea to pin that thread!?)

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#11 amateursarto

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 08:41 PM

Well, he is in business and he has to eat! And he sells suits with nice sleeves.
Lg
posaune


I know that you can be in business and share your knowledge of the trade/craftsmanship "secrets" and still thrive. i was taught carpentry/home building by my father; he was taught by his father, and he was taught by his father. when we work a project with other builders you always find guys telling where they bought a special tool, showing how they learned to do this or that, and even giving impromptu lessons on how to do it, right there on the spot sometimes! it's just puzzling to see that people who lament the loss of interest in a craft/trade keep things secret when such a mentality probably contributes to the demise of the very craft/trade they adore so much! i believe that you can, as you say, stay in business, eat and sell suits with nice sleeves, while sharing your knowledge with others. don't misunderstand what i'm saying; the people here are very giving, but i've read at least two books on tailoring where the author describes tailors of the past as being very provincial. the author also remarked that he/she didn't understand why tailors were this way, when the art of tailoring was being lost right before their very eyes. i agree this mentality has to in some way contribute to things being lost when it comes to tailoring.
AMATEURSARTO

#12 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 10:18 PM

There used to be a lot of articles in the German trade literature until the late 70's dealing with sleeve problems, the most important ones are in that thread I linked to or in other ones. You'll find the answers you seek here on the forum.

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#13 greger

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:51 AM

Some tailors believe some knowledge should be earned. Therefore, it is not thrown on the internet for anybody to see.

#14 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 03:50 PM

Schneidergott is so true. I am to lazy to quote everything.

I know there should be no secrets in tailoring, but tailors have style and they want to keep their style. Every tailor need to work hard on their own style with trial and error. A few tailors will outcome with master pieces, even if they never had a master and did all by themselves, which is even more hard. For instance if Jeffrey never had a master tailor to guide him for a while he thought himself then which is the hard thing where the talent comes into play. I had cutter and master tailor to guide me for quite a time, but I also have talent. I probably could copy Jeffrey 1:1 and I see exactly the style and I really know what the hard work was to get to that extremely well point of knowledge and making. I went a similar way of self instructing but more easy probably cause I had luck and helper when I was learning. So I understand if someone has secrets even if it is not nice to have them. But we are in a world of competition. The few tailors in this world want to sell and have fun making the suits cause they stitch their soul into it. Everybody dies on its own with the needle in the hand. Means I will make mistakes as well.

The fall of the sleeve lays in the cutting of the sleeve. Understand the sleeve needs to fit the arm hole in height and width use the formulas and there you go. You need to work exact like a watchmaker, 2mm can count if the fabric springs in and out where the sleeve is not quiet in some spots. You need first to draft the perfect armhole in its form and the same form has the sleeve. All the formulas are in the forum. Itís possible to do it. But a good suit is not only the sleeve. You also need to draft the back and chest with the right ease and shoulders with the right height. This is scientific work and thinking.
www.berlinbespokesuits.com

#15 Kim Pattern

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:28 PM

Damn! I wish I could read German... :Praying:

#16 Schneidergott

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:40 PM

Some tailors believe some knowledge should be earned. Therefore, it is not thrown on the internet for anybody to see.



Apart from that, trial and error is a much better way to learn things than just being told. Plus you can re-trace the fault, because you know the complete process.

And it's not just the sleeve alone. It's, like DZ said, a combination of armhole size, depth and shape and cutting the sleeve in harmony with them.
Some sleeve's shape follows a function (ballroom dancer's coats), others might look good but are uncomfortable to wear.
Each one has to find their own middle-way between comfort and look.
You just have to try things out...

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#17 Sator

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 09:34 PM

I find this reluctance to share knowledge strange and archaic. After all, if you look up Google on the subject of scientific subjects, you can find just about anything you need to know.

That said, I can understand why people keep knowledge close to their chest. It has to do with a sneaking suspicion that you have to try to stay one step ahead of your industry rivals. Also scientific knowledge is different because in academia, the more published you are, the more this advances your career. It does a tailor little good at all to be published.

That said, I do suspect someone like A.A. Whife earned more as a lecturer and industry consultant than as an author/editor. I even have a feeling that Whife knew a lot more than he revealed. Statements like this make me suspicious:

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Are we really to believe that in his 3-4 decades as a writer, he never got around to writing in depth and systematic instructions for the best way to set sleeves. Really? When you can put information in books how to perform root canal surgery or how to insert a central venous catheter into someone's jugular vein, why can't you write out instructions on how to set a sleeve? This is not the first time I have seen Whife skirt around a subject and only brush the surface with some perfunctory excuse.

The cynic in me says, he is deliberately withholding knowledge. It is almost as though he is saying "well, if you want to know that detail, you'll just have to book with my secretary to have me come and do some private consultancy work" - "oh, and by the way, as Chief Technical Editor of The Tailor & Cutter my hourly fees are....". All of his writings strike me as being little more than a delightful little hors d'oeuvre to whet the appetite for the real content to follow for whoever is able to pay.

#18 Schneidergott

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:14 PM

According to the book "The Abruzzi tailors" setting the sleeves was done by the master only, hiding it from his apprentices.

Setting sleeves takes practise, and each cloth behaves differently.
I have tried several times to apply the knowledge I gained from those German articles at work, but I must confess I often failed to get a proper result.
The whole process of cutting and setting a good sleeve starts much earlier, meaning with the way you draft the garment, the alterations during the fittings and the shape of the final armhole.
If you use an armhole (shape) pattern to get a constant shape you can easily construct a decent sleeve to fit into it.


"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.





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