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#1 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 01:16 PM

Hello,

I'm glad to have found this website and I hope I can learn a great deal as well as contribute as far as my ignorance takes me.

I began learning to sew about 4 months ago and have been practicing shirt making with David's book. I'm content with what I've learned thus far, but I'm rather exhausted trying to find a solution to correct the way the sleeve is fitting.

I'm including a few pictures so a fit assessment can be made possible. I would be glad to take any other pictures that might help you see any fitting issues:

Let me begin by explaining how I've created these patterns:

My measurements were taken by a family member, followed by the sloper that I drafted with instructions from this book:

http://www.amazon.co...90394324&sr=8-3

The sloper was then fitted with a gingham broadcloth and corrections were extensively made around the shoulder blades, as well as some smaller changes elsewhere. The family member folded up the fabric around the shoulder blade where the arm connects in a horizontal dart-like manner. I took this idea from Donald McCunn

I'm not a fan of darts however, so with the fabric pinned as it was, I drew a smooth curve to center back to shape the back in order to avoid the dart. This part had me a little confused because the fabric pinned should, from what I've read, smooth out to zero pinned fabric as you approach center back, but instead, there was some fabric also pinned at center back. We had it pinned because an otherwise unsightly pucker would result at center back along the shoulder blade level. I imagined this was so because a substantial amount of fabric was pinned at both ends of the sloper along at that level. A horizontal section equal to the pinned amount at center back along the shoulder blade level was then removed. Judging by the looks of things, it doesn't seem like it was a mistake to take that section out, but I'll let you be the judge of that by looking at the pictures.

My concern with the sleeve is the following:

I've basted on the sleeve several times trying a few things. The sleeve you see set in is the best I've been able to do. The choice of sleeve cap was decided from the same book regarding the sloper. The author suggests establishing a sleeve cap by subtracting the top shoulder to wrist bone sleeve length from the underarm to wrist bone sleeve length ( just past the wrist bone anyway). This resulting measurement was 7. I began to think perhaps this number was too high, considering every site I've found discussing caps mentions 6 to be the limit. I basted the same sleeve, having lowered the cap to 6 and raising the underarm length about 1/2 inch, although I guess I should have risen it exactly the amount I lowered the cap, one inch. I also eased the sleeve when I tried a 6 inch cap height. A lowered cap, raised armhole, and eased in manner didn't prove more comfortable, specifically in the front armscye, which I found to be a bit tighter. It felt tight at the top of the shoulder as well, not a problem I encountered with a 7 inch cap. I did not ease in the 7 inch cap because I presume too much would have to have been eased. The chest circumference did decrease somewhat because the sleeve at 7 inches was not wide enough in the bicep width to reach the back side seam - back armscye juncture. I did not re cut a sleeve with a wider bicep line because I'm content with that width.

Do some of you increase the bicep width in a situation like this to meet the side seam - armscye seam juncture and taper the sleeve accordingly to reach a similar silhouette that the previous width had?

For the 7 inch cap, when pinning the center sleeve to the center shoulder line, as instructed in David's book, I found it was only the back cap curve that was short of length, about an inch. The front curve met up fine.

My main concern is getting rid of the creases in the back portion of the sleeve cap seen in the picture of the back of the shirt. Do you guys consider sleeve pitch for shirting as well or is it only for jackets?

This is my first time trying to explain everything so extensively. I apologize if things are confusing and unclear. Please let me know if anything needs further explanation.

Some questions I have:

Is the author's method of establishing a sleeve cap correct?

Are tailors easing sleeves when shirts are so close fitting and was I right to ease starting from the notches about 3 inches from the sleeve seams (see sleeve shot) ? The author suggested dividing the armscye lengths by 3 and placing a notch on both sleeve cap and scye. In addition, the author suggests measuring the front armscye length along the front cap curve, marking it, doing the same for the back curve, and then establishing a mid point beween the two and marking that as your shoulder seam point.

If tailors are easing, does 1 3/4" of ease in the sleeve cap for a 22 inch armscye sound correct (author's suggestion)?

How do the two armscyes looks in the last picture? The higher one has the 1/2 inch extension I added. Keep in mind both have a 1/8" seam allowance (I've practiced sewing a 1/4" felled seam).

How are people cutting the chest widths for front and back? Perhaps our measuring was inaccurate, but my back width was equal to chest width. I have a defined back so I didn't consider this odd. Since I added a 1 1/4 inch box pleat, I cut the back pattern a little narrower than the front pattern but perhaps not narrow enough. Half of the back measures 10 1/4 while half of the front measures 10 1/2. With the pleat, half of the back measures 11 1/2.

Should I cut an even narrower width in the back chest and fuller width in the front chest so there isn't a resulting 2 inches wider for the entire back (23= entire back 21= entire chest) ? I think this could eliminate some drape in the back.

I greatly appreciate any help and thank you for allowing me to be a forum member. I hope my first post hasn't been too demanding.

Cristian

Note: I think I may have pulled on the collar too much when sewing and I had trouble overlapping it, so it's rather open in the pictures where the buttoning occurs. Also, I haven't finished it nor did it have interfacing, so please excuse it all together, haha.

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Edited by Che Pasticcio, 22 November 2010 - 01:19 PM.


#2 Martin Stall

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 06:41 PM

You're going for too tight. I think it feels tight in the scye because the back is too narrow.

You have curved the top of the back too much. Normally it lowers about 1,5 cm at the sides. The cloth that you cut out needs to be there if it's going to be wearable, and there will always be some mess there, it's unavoidable. The body curves in that area and whereas woolen cloth can be shrunk, stretched and abused in variety of other ways, cotton can't so you can not get the same smooth fit as you can with a coat.

And that brings us to the sleeve: I've never seen an eased sleeve on a men's shirt. Traditional wear such as Jacobean shirts may have cloth gathered at the shoulder, but not shirts.

What to do: Measure the seamline of the armhole. Careful you don't stretch the cloth when you do that! Then use the resulting number to make sure the seamline of the sleeve is exactly the same. Make corresponding notches.

Crown height: The higher the crown, the more fitted the sleeve. A lower crown gives more ease of movement but it also looks messy. For a general comfortable and decently fitted sleeve, start with 1/3rd of the armscye circumference minus 5 or 6 cm.

I can't say I'm very impressed with the pattern: when I look at the yoke and the way the collar sits, the neck ring is too wide to the side of your neck. If you put the pattern together on the table, it should resemble a circle to a degree. Yours would look more like an ellips.
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#3 Kerry

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 07:09 PM

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I cannot be sure because you are not standing perfectly straight (both arms down) but your left shoulder appears higher and shorter than your right. Look at your neck in the photo, the collar is tight at your left shoulder and gaping on your right. Your chin is also not central to your neck.

Best to do a fitting with both sleeves in as one sleeve can drag the body over toward it . You will need to check this and as Martin says, your shirt is too tight so you need to work out how much is tight fitting and what is caused by body shape. FWIW: my head is, as I like to say "on crooked" like your photo so it isn't that unusual.
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#4 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 03:39 AM

You're going for too tight. I think it feels tight in the scye because the back is too narrow.

You have curved the top of the back too much. Normally it lowers about 1,5 cm at the sides.

I can't say I'm very impressed with the pattern: when I look at the yoke and the way the collar sits, the neck ring is too wide to the side of your neck. If you put the pattern together on the table, it should resemble a circle to a degree. Yours would look more like an ellips.


I can't seem to get the multi quote to work, so I'll reply to yours, Martin.

Thank you for the replies. I will raise the back curve so that it's only 1.5 cm. I understand the collar looks strange. As I mentioned, I think something might have happened while sewing it, because the resulting measurement was too small. There was definitely about a 1/2 inch of ease in the sloper yet now, as you can see, I was about an inch off from pinning it. I'm sure after fixing that issue, it will not look so ellipse-like as Martin has mentioned. Perhaps the back neck curve could be a little raised. I have it low because a tailor once told me that to avoid the top of the stand pulling away from the neck, lower the curve,

I was a little concerned with how much curvature the back has taken. It looks like the pleat is not serving its purpose. It looks like the fabric from the back scyes is pulling everything from the pleat.

My only concern once I lessen the curve is the fabric that tends to pop up and fold at that precise point. Is this unavoidable as well or does one play with releasing the shoulder seam to improve that? Like so:

http://atailormadeit.blogspot.com/

For the crown height, you haven't mentioned any subtraction of measurements process like the one I took from the book. I'm guesing the author is doing that as a fail safe for beginners, so if they have numbers like 10 for a cap height, they know, based on the mentioned cap height norms, that either they have cut their scye with way too much curvature (probably more unlikely) or the scye is dropped very low.

Theatrical tailor,

I will be sure of my posture next picture, thanks.

Edited by Che Pasticcio, 23 November 2010 - 03:51 AM.


#5 greger

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 06:14 AM

Oh Martin, you never saw my granddads sleeves on his shirts. If you want to see shirring- he did it. I have never seen anybody put more ease into a sleeve sewing it into the arm hole than him. In fact I have never seen anybody put together more uneven lengths together as he he did sewing the sleeve into the shirt. He must have sewn it by hand. One of my aunts gave me a shirt that had two pleats in the crown, they must have been 3/4" each and granddad thought that it wasn't really enough and not a method he would do.


Che, The crown has to much height and to narrow. If you look at the sleeve with the shirt on there is not the proper room for the round of the arm at shoulder- horizontally it is to flat. Armhole depth should always be less than a coat and that shouldn't be much either.The finished seam. in lower scye, should be just lower than uncomfortable, unless you are old or injured, then it can be deeper. The yoke seems a bit wide from neck down. You can also put your pleats in the shoulder blade region. And do you really want the shoulder seam right on top the shoulders? Nothing wrong with it right on top. I find that the shoulder seam should work with the muscles. There are a number of shirt threads here to read, and ask at andy forum there is alex kabazz. You can read what he says about shirts.

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#6 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 07:39 AM

Oh Martin, you never saw my granddads sleeves on his shirts. If you want to see shirring- he did it. I have never seen anybody put more ease into a sleeve sewing it into the arm hole than him. In fact I have never seen anybody put together more uneven lengths together as he he did sewing the sleeve into the shirt. He must have sewn it by hand. One of my aunts gave me a shirt that had two pleats in the crown, they must have been 3/4" each and granddad thought that it wasn't really enough and not a method he would do.


Che, The crown has to much height and to narrow. If you look at the sleeve with the shirt on there is not the proper room for the round of the arm at shoulder- horizontally it is to flat. Armhole depth should always be less than a coat and that shouldn't be much either.The finished seam. in lower scye, should be just lower than uncomfortable, unless you are old or injured, then it can be deeper. The yoke seems a bit wide from neck down. You can also put your pleats in the shoulder blade region. And do you really want the shoulder seam right on top the shoulders? Nothing wrong with it right on top. I find that the shoulder seam should work with the muscles. There are a number of shirt threads here to read, and ask at andy forum there is alex kabazz. You can read what he says about shirts.


I think the shoulder seam will be a little closer in once I figure out this business about the neck size. I will cut try a 5-6" cap with a wider bicep line and then taper the sleeve seam more. Thanks for your input.

Edit: I think you were talking about the entire shoulder line. It looks too high because of the angle I took the shot from.

Edited by Che Pasticcio, 23 November 2010 - 08:09 AM.


#7 Martin Stall

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:13 PM

Sator, multiquote seems to be broken.

Christian, I doubt you will be happy to hear it, but that shirt is not going to work out and be wearable. The back is just way too narrow and there's no fix for that unless you cut a new back.

Even so, I have my doubts. I see 3 reasons for your problems:

1. I already said it: the pattern doesn't thrill me. I assume you drafted correctly. I see issues that shouldn't be there, such as the neck/yoke.
2. You focus on fit, but for your first shirt, you should focus on making a shirt. Some fit issues are important for a first, such as length, collar, and chest (to a degree). You are getting yourself into a muddle by doing two things at the same time.
3. You deviate from the pattern (and I hope it's a good one) without knowing what you're doing. Your alterations of the drape behind the arm and your tweaking of chest are things that experience will teach you never to do. A pattern has it's science and logic and you really need to fully understand various ways of cutting before you can do what you're trying.
4. You're not using jersey fabric. The slim fit you want is impossible in a shirt. Can. Not. Be. Done. Stretch fabric yes, but not in regular cotton.

As for the crown height: my method is a simple way to always have the crown relative to the body. What the book tells you can work but only if you have taken perfect direct measurements. If you're learning, it is safer to use proportional measurements until you really understand measuring, cutting, and fitting.

It pains me to rain on your parade, but there you have it. I do mean well though and I totally cheer for your efforts!

The best thing I could suggest is to put this one aside as learning experience. I know that hurts. It has happened to all of us.

Start with a new pattern, and use mostly proportional measurements. Reference them to your direct measurements. In any case of doubt or weirdness, go with the proportional calculations.

Cut it, baste it, show us. You're going to find lots of drape, and that is what shirts look like. Some of that can be trimmed away. I'd be more than happy to help.

After you've made one or two shirts and seen how they wear, how they feel, how they behave after washings, then comes the time to really tweak your pattern into perfection.

Greger: Of course your granddad had sleeves with shirring and fullness! If you are say 40 years old, your granddad would have lived around the 1920's to 1940's right? Styles were very very different back then!

I just meant that pleating or shirring can be done in a mens' shirt, but only if it's for period/historical clothing. Or if you want a dandy-esque style. Kind of bohemian. Can be very nice when combined properly, but not for everyday wear.
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#8 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 12:48 AM

Martin,

I'm here to be critiqued harshly or not! Perhaps I didn't make myself clear about the shirt. I'm making changes that I know aren't going to be applied to this particular shirt, but rather to the pattern. We'll see how the next one turns out. The alterations behind the arm never seemed right, so experience did teach me something, even if I was too stubborn to take it out until someone confirmed its error.

What I'm a little curious about is how do you manipulate the first pattern's test fit in the back where the curve is placed? In the video I posted at the top, the gentleman is fitting the sloper, not an actual shirt pattern, and he is darting that area. If I'm going to add a 1.5cm drop and curve it later on, how do I get an idea of armscye length if I haven't curved it yet? Do I pinch the fabric the same amount the 1.5cm curve eliminates and is this even necessary (are tailors even doing it this way or are they immediately drafting a shirt pattern from the original pattern without fitting the former)?

Edited by Che Pasticcio, 24 November 2010 - 12:49 AM.


#9 Martin Stall

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 02:04 AM

Ok, cool. Open to critique, hands-on approach, good thinker... this kid might actually go places. Read on for quotes and comments:


"I'm here to be critiqued harshly or not! Perhaps I didn't make myself clear about the shirt. I'm making changes that I know aren't going to be applied to this particular shirt, but rather to the pattern"

Very good. Good learning attitude. Any noobs listening yo? You know I'm talking to you :)
Seriously: you're running experiments and having a test case. Awesome, that's the way to start. I still think you should just make a shirt fully without bothering too much about fit though.

"We'll see how the next one turns out. The alterations behind the arm never seemed right"

Not only are they not right, they are totally impossible. I only saw 30 seconds of the video before I started getting involved, but now I've watched the whole thing. Conclusion? The whole thing does not apply to you and your project at all.
First, he's teaching about a upper torso sloper, sometimes also called bodice. Look at how frikkin close that fits, both on the guy and the girl. That kind of pattern can not be used for shirts because shirts can not be that close fitting. And whatever you're making, a pattern like that will always require:

a) Lots of shaping with the good ole iron. Cotton won't take it.
b) Darts in places where shirts don't have them.

You're using a method for the wrong kind of garment. Forget about it. Completely. Wrong foot, so get on a different foot please.

As I said before: start afresh and forget about your current track. It is not going to take you anywhere.


"What I'm a little curious about is how do you manipulate the first pattern's test fit in the back where the curve is placed?"

You don't. A shirt will always have drape in the back. And if you make it tight so as to eliminate that drape it will make the drape appear horizontal, instead of the more esthetically pleasing vertical. I promise.

"In the video I posted at the top, the gentleman is fitting the sloper, not an actual shirt pattern, and he is darting that area."

There is your problem. Wrong instructions. You want a shirt, not a bodice. Fortunately :)

"If I'm going to add a 1.5cm drop"

Don't. Just don't. There's a reason why the standard is 1.5.


This is what I hope you will do;

1. Stop. Start with a new pattern. Follow it to the letter. Use proportional, slim fitting calculations. If your pattern doesn't have it, but only uses direct measurements, it's not a pattern meant for beginners and you should use another one. Seriously.
2. Cut a new shirt from the new pattern.
3. Baste it together.
4. Post the pics.
5. Let's talk.

Good luck :)
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#10 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 09:58 AM

I couldn't agree more. I'll hear from you soon enough.

-The "kid"

BTW Greger, your grandpa rules.

Edited by Che Pasticcio, 24 November 2010 - 09:59 AM.


#11 greger

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 06:09 PM

Most of what Martin says is right. I'm a bit more flexible about somethings, such as shirring in the sleeves. Don't have to follow the crowd absolutely. Otherwise, if everybody did what Martin said, there would be nothing new. When people do something new sometimes it breaks new ground. But, there is a big difference between the tailors world, at least some tailors, than the design world for mass production or home sewng. For tops the tailors world is tops, and most all the other methods it is best to empty ones mind of. Some of the modern methods is based upon todays equipment and the temptation to use it when it is not better nor equal. When it is equal or better then it maybe wise to use it. I don't think the old methods should be forgotten. The way the dry cleaners press coats would ruin the coats granddad made for himself. Customers would depend on the dry cleaners methods, so the coats for customers would be made to meet their needs. When you make for yourself you can have things the rest of the world can't have.

Anyway, follow Martins directions. Find a good pattern in one of these threads and baste it together and pin fit. After fitting- A thread for assembling.
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#12 Martin Stall

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 07:13 PM

I couldn't agree more. I'll hear from you soon enough.

-The "kid"

BTW Greger, your grandpa rules.



Er.... won't we hear from you first?
:Confused:
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

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#13 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 03:01 AM

Er.... won't we hear from you first?
:Confused:


I meant that in the sense that I'll be posting pictures and hearing from you soon.

#14 Martin Stall

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 09:50 AM

Ha, I thought so. Good. Looking forward to it. Another tip: Take new measurements. It is a good idea to get experienced and check each time during the learning process.
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

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#15 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 01:54 PM

Note: I will buy a new bottle of Windex.

So here it is basted. I was sure I did something wrong when I sewed the collar on the previous shirt, causing it to be too short, and indeed I was right. What do you think of the shape now, Martin? Instead of a starting a new pattern, I made changes to the previous one to practice fixing mistakes. I squared the back to get rid of the drastic curve and then followed your word on the 1.5 cm drop. I raised the armhole as well. I used Roberts and Onishenko (the pinned thread) to reestablish side seams, as I felt mine were a little excessive.

I'm definitely more satisfied with the fit/feel of this one. My arms feel comfortable and I think there is enough cloth around the ball of my shoulder. It looks a little snug around mid bicep in the back picture, but I'm comfortable there as well. The lighting in the back picture wasn't the best. There is the slightest bit of tightness around my chest at bottom scye level, and I think a 1/4 inch of extra circumference might suffice. Would I extend the scye 1/16 inch for both fronts and back, or just 1/8 inch for both fronts? The back seems to be full enough that I wouldn't want to add any more width there, after all, it's the front that feels slightly snug.

I'm concerned about the back having too much drape. Is this acceptable or do you take some width off the back and add it to the front (around waist level), to maintain the same measurements? A good pressing would probably improve things.

The sleeve length looks a little short. The arm that's holding the camera has an unfolded allowance where the cuff will be, making it seem longer than it really is, so I'm going by the folded end on the left arm. I'm not sure if the back neck should drop slightly the way it does (see side shot). Let the butchery begin.

Piano piano...

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Edited by Che Pasticcio, 29 November 2010 - 02:35 PM.


#16 Martin Stall

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:10 PM

[quote name='Che Pasticcio' timestamp='1291002892' post='15891']
Note: I will buy a new bottle of Windex.

Sator, hand me the yardstick. This kid needs a beating :)

Christian, two things: Three cheers for putting in the time and using your brain. Good to see. But! When I said to draft a new pattern, there were three very compelling reasons for that:

1. It's good practice. You need that at this stage.
2. It's very difficult to repair a draft that has been altered erroneously, even if you're an expert cutter.
3. I said so. Not being pedantic for its own sake yo, but if you're going to an expert for help, your going to get the most mileage if you follow the instructions (Not that I'm an expert shirtmaker, mind you. I just feel that after making 300 of them, I've got some experience).

"So here it is basted. I was sure I did something wrong when I sewed the collar on the previous shirt, causing it to be too short, and indeed I was right. What do you think of the shape now, Martin?"

It looks better, but it's ruffled in the back, which leads me to believe it should be more curved. However the CF of the collar is flush against the neck, which you get with a curved mandarin collar. Show me the pattern of the collar please.

"I'm definitely more satisfied with the fit/feel of this one. My arms feel comfortable and I think there is enough cloth around the ball of my shoulder. It looks a little snug around mid bicep in the back picture, but I'm comfortable there as well."

It still looks too tight all around, to be honest. You'll notice when you wear it for a day. As the skin breathes and moisture passes, you will see your skin get irritated and flushed or rashed.

"The lighting in the back picture wasn't the best. There is the slightest bit of tightness around my chest at bottom scye level, and I think a 1/4 inch of extra circumference might suffice. Would I extend the scye 1/16 inch for both fronts and back, or just 1/8 inch for both fronts? The back seems to be full enough that I wouldn't want to add any more width there, after all, it's the front that feels slightly snug."

I don't know what you mean by extend the scye... widen it? If so, only in the front. The further towards CB the scye, the more the sleeve will pull on the back. As it is, the back seems ok. The center pleat tries to close (yes, pressing is always necessary for good fitting assertion)Oh and don't make me do inches. I won't :)

"I'm concerned about the back having too much drape. Is this acceptable or do you take some width off the back and add it to the front (around waist level), to maintain the same measurements? A good pressing would probably improve things."

You're concerned because you want a skin tight shirt, it's impossible. The back needs drape. The tighter the back, the more the drape behind the arm will be horizontal (bad) and not vertical (good).

Overall it looks better, but still too tight.

You can't really take much width out of the back. Some, but not all. And you can't transfer it to the front.Go to Ask Andy and look for Alexander Kabbaz. He did a few articles there about the width of the back and shirtmaking. Very informative.

So, are you going to start a new draft?

The shoulder could be 1,5 cm wider. I don't like to see the ball of the shoulder in the sleeve, but that's partly style, partly comfort. Slightly wider will be slightly more comfortable.
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#17 Nishijin

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:44 PM

Che, a shirt need to drape in the back. Remember you need to be able to move in your shirt.

I made an experiment, once. I asked someone to make 2 points on my body, with a pen. First point on my spine, second where there would be the armscye seam. Those were level, so the distance between them was the half back width.
I then asked her to measure the distance with my arm on the side, as on your pictures, then measure again with my arms crossed in front of me. The difference was 4 cm (1" 3/4). I am a 98cm chest, BTW.

So this means that if I want to move confortably in a shirt, I need the back to "give" 4cm when I move my arms forward. Part of it could be given from the sleevecap, but still, the back needs some room.

Part of those 4cm are given for the most part by the pleats in the back. Part only, as pleats are usually 1cm wide, which means 2cm t be given instead of 4. The missing 2cm are given by back ease and sleeve cap ease.

The thing is, you need some excess cloth in the back. This means the back of a shirt will always drape. Always. If you don't like it in the hollow of the waist, you can put small darts/fish here. But not too much. I would not take at the side seam, as I fear it will loose the balance (you will get some drags).



BTW, your rigth sleeve seems the good length to me, as you still have to add the cuff. I like cuffs to be close fitting, and sleeve on the "too long" side, so when I move my arms, the sleeve has enough room/length and the cuff stays in place.
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Posted 29 November 2010 - 10:07 PM

I think Che is slender, and probably finds that RTW clothes fit like potato sacks. This leads to a desire over compensate in the opposite direction.

As Martin says a shirt by its nature must have drape in it. There should be drape folds (vertical excess) at both the front and back of armscye. Don't be tempted to clear the scye of these folds. Otherwise, the shirt will feel very tight and uncomfortable.

Also Nishijin is right about starting again rather than trying too hard to fix an old draft. The commonest way that a beginner loses confidence in drafting is when they find that each "correction" makes things worse and worse. Often it's better just to start from scratch.




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