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#37 Noble Savage

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 06:53 AM

This is not a case of ignorance or not. This is a case of cost. CBS undoubtedly picked up the bill as a business expense.

Mr. Cronkite and other correspondents obviously could not have been required to bespeak court dress for that one occasion when they had to wear it. So, they were correctly steered towards a company that offered a visual facsimile, at lower cost, much like the gentleman not owning a dinner jacket is recommended a formalwear rental shop. The clothes that most rental shops let out are not the same as the those one gets from a good tailor, but they provide a close-enough outwardly appearance to be still 'correct'.

Edited by Noble Savage, 03 February 2011 - 08:33 AM.


#38 Noble Savage

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:05 AM

Better to have correct court dress or advise people to wear morning dress.


That is like suggesting someone make due with breaking the dress code by wearing a suit to a black tie event, rather than a hired dinner jacket.

Edited by Noble Savage, 03 February 2011 - 08:31 AM.


#39 Charles R Bingley

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 08:56 PM

So being the case for hired: at least get most of the details correct...
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#40 NJS

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 10:23 PM

The last time Dress and Insignia Worn at His Majesty's Court was published was just before WWII and so there probably was a specification of dress for the Coronation in 1953; although I don't have it to hand. It will be intersting to see what kind of Heath Robinson botch-up will be shaken together for the next Coronation; to appease the proponents of modernization and to save cost. I certainly don't imagine that breeches will be making much of an appearance. It might be an idea just to prescribe full evening dress for everyone not uniformed. Ironically, that could give 'white tie' something of a boost and would be worthwhile for that alone.
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#41 NJS

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 10:23 PM

The last time Dress and Insignia Worn at His Majesty's Court was published was just before WWII and so there probably was a specification of dress for the Coronation in 1953; although I don't have it to hand. It will be intersting to see what kind of Heath Robinson botch-up will be shaken together for the next Coronation; to appease the proponents of modernization and to save cost. I certainly don't imagine that breeches will be making much of an appearance. It might be an idea just to prescribe full evening dress for everyone not uniformed. Ironically, that could give 'white tie' something of a boost and would be worthwhile for that alone.
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#42 PocketTriangle

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 11:17 PM

Ironically, that could give 'white tie' something of a boost and would be worthwhile for that alone.


True, but it might also lead to the impression that white tie is morning dress and bring the "tuxedos at daytime weddings" fallacy to the UK

#43 Nishijin

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 11:52 PM

Please take in consideration local culture about what is correct and what is fallacy.

After many years of British propaganda, while I was saying that morning dress is the appropriate formal outfit for wedding, I discovered that white tie is traditionnal in France for the groom. I've seen many pictures of weddings where the groom is in white tie during the day (and wears elements taken from white tie, such as the tie itself, in lesser-class weddings), while I found not a single one where the groom is in morning suit from 1920 until 1960.

I believe the theory behind was that white tie was considered a tad more formal that morning suit, so the groom wore it, while the rest of the wedding party was in morning suit. And at least, it is coherent with the bride, who is in evening dress all day long, after all...


That said, I agree that daytime weddings in the UK should not be in "tuxedo". But what is better : revival of the white tie, with tuxedo wedding consequence, or no tuxedo in daytime, but white tie extinction ? (and loosing the battle anyway, since we will still see tuxedo weddings...)
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#44 Noble Savage

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 06:07 AM

So being the case for hired: at least get most of the details correct...


I was under the impression that it was a UK clothing-for-hire shop. It turns out that the Brooks Costume Company, is in fact a theatrical costume company, then based in New York, which served television, film, and circus productions. :Big Grin:

This of course, can not be discussed on the forum. But here is a case of Walter Cronkite wearing costume clothes to a real event.

Edited by Noble Savage, 04 February 2011 - 06:33 AM.


#45 Noble Savage

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:26 AM

Posted Image

James Hazen Hyde (1876–1959) was the son of Henry Baldwin Hyde, the founder of The Equitable Life Assurance Society of the United States.

On the last night of January 1905, James Hazen Hyde gave one of the most fabulous costume balls of the Gilded Age.

Photo: James Hazen Hyde Ball, 1-31-1905 L-R Mrs. Sidney Smith, P.A. Clark, Mrs. James T. Burden, Stanford White, James Henry Smith, Norman Whitehouse, Mrs. Stuyvesant Fish, and Sidney Smith seated. MNY69594

Edited by Noble Savage, 01 April 2011 - 09:31 AM.


#46 Noble Savage

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:36 AM

Posted Image

A scene depicting the great James Hazen Hyde Ball of January 31st, 1905. Hyde is shown greeting French actress Gabrielle Rejane in the Ballroom of Sherry's Restaurant ~ decorated to replicate a garden at Versailles, with real turf and thousands of roses. Contributor's collection.

#47 Sator

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:09 AM

A little reality check for those who live in costume la la land.

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#48 Noble Savage

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:40 AM

You have some strange pictures in your collection Sator.

Edited by Noble Savage, 01 April 2011 - 11:41 AM.

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#49 carpu65

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 12:08 PM

A little reality check for those who live in costume la la land.



You are strict,Sator. :girl_devil:
Is only for know better the history of clothing,nothing more. ;)
I like archeology,and in another forum i talk with friends about ancient greek civilization.
But i assure you that not have nothing intention by get out in street in this suit:

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#50 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 04:21 PM

Didn't I say something about making a modern pinstripe toga somewhere here? LOL
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#51 greger

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 04:22 PM

Sator you have no idea what will be the next phase of clothes.
Customers decide something and the industries try to catch up.
When they over shoot then they loose some money.
History shows an ebb and flow of past and knew.
Clothing fads is a commodity. It can change on a dime, and some have lost their shirt.
The last I know of knickers being sold is with mountaineering and cross country skiing about 20-30 years ago.
This one school of tailors still teach plus fours.
Cowboy shirts have been around 3 times in my life time, and each time was in a different way.
I can't think of one reason why young people today wouldn't like dress breeches to come back one way or another.
One of them come up with a nifty idea and $5,000,000 will be earned from people buying.
Nobody has control over what the people will buy.
Facts- If it wasn't for the internet and people like Manton, RSS, Alden and some others there would probably be half the bespoke houses today.
They are customers talking about it over the internet who have a way with words that inspire people to go out and spend more money then they would have and on something most had never even heard of.
You delete a thread with what I believe were last know as conductor sleeves that somebody posted with a picture 2-300 years old.
The conductor sleeves is very good sleeve for tailors to know how to make for music conductors. Clearly not every tailor even knows about them.
And for this fad of ball room dancing they would be good for that too. They are better than what others are using.
What artist doesn't have a connection to the past?
You are to skitterish and don't know how to use the past.

#52 carpu65

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 04:58 AM

Didn't I say something about making a modern pinstripe toga somewhere here? LOL


"Himation".
"Toga" is Roman and is very different.
The Himation is a large rectangular pieces of fabric arranged around the body in a variety of different ways.
They were made out of loosely woven thick wool.
Men normally wore the himation over a short "Chiton" (Tunic).
The Himation was markedly less voluminous than the Roman Toga.
Toga was a semicircular pieces of fabric (not rectangular like Himation) heavy and with many complicated folds.
Toga was very uncomfortable,cold in winter and hot in summer.
So, ancient Romans from late Repubblicans times adopted Greek Himation calling it "Pallium".
So for Romans in Imperial age, Himation-Pallium was the equivalent of modern lounge suit,
and Toga the equivalent of morning coat (dressed in toga for wedding and official ceremonies).
In Greek-Roman age,male fashion was the same ("timeless" :Big Grin: ) for about 600 years
(change were only decoration in chiton and himation,or fashonables colors,
or higher or less width (exemple,in III-II century BC,chitons were "slim cut",
in I century AD large and baggy ("drape" :spiteful: ).

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P.S.

Sator, NO, we don't want wear Himation or Toga.

Edited by carpu65, 02 April 2011 - 05:14 AM.


#53 Sator

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 06:52 AM

You are strict,Sator. :girl_devil:
Is only for know better the history of clothing,nothing more. ;)
I like archeology,and in another forum i talk with friends about ancient greek civilization.
But i assure you that not have nothing intention by get out in street in this suit:


When I started the forum it wouldn't have concerned me. If we occasionally discussed ancient Roman, or Medieval costume it would be an interesting diversion. However, I soon discovered that >90% of posts here would be about costumes. We could have kids wanting to learn to make home made togas for their next drunken toga party:

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I also enjoy reading about archaeology and history. I am reading a book about the Battle of Stalingrad at the moment. However, I am not inspired to discuss Wehrmacht or Red Army uniforms - let alone Waffen SS or NKVD uniforms. I would hate to imagine the sort of crowd that would attract here!

Old clothes acquire strange social meanings ("baggage") with time. It's the sort of baggage that is best left at the door.

#54 carpu65

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 09:12 AM

Well, historic clothes are not costumes.
Make a toga or himation is not simple.
For exemple, decorations or purple strips ("clavii") were not sewn,but tissues in the fabric (a sort of wool twill or serge).
The happy guys in pictures are not wearing toga or himation,but only sheets
(and during parties Romans not wearing "Togas",but "Synthesis", a fine cloth Greek garnment, equivalent of our modern dinner jackets).

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Sincerly i understand the problem.
When a guy time ago,ask a pattern for cut a old German uniform...well,that was a costume.
But why not talk sometime about history of clothes?
Is about where we came and where we go.
I don't think that none here want wear like a Victorian gentleman or a Greek philosopher,
but is an interesting matter,no?

For the rest i don't think that men suits from 1925 to present day are strictly speaking "costumes".
In 1986, a 1961 suit,with narrow lapels and slim trousers could be considered "a costume";
now is trendy,is in fashion.
Tomorrow?
Waiting for the silver jumpsuit,maybe the clean 1926 double breasted ,
or the 1935 drape or the bold look 40s-80s,could be the last trend...so what is costume?

Edited by carpu65, 02 April 2011 - 10:07 AM.





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