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#91 Sator

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 10:17 PM

Since you refuse to learn the past, how would you know?


How do I know?

My reference text for the history of tailoring is Edward B Giles The Art of Cutting. I repeat: no texts on cutting from the 1300s exist. The earliest text based on some sort of mathematical method of cutting that Giles could find was by Juan de Alcega entitled Libro de geometrica practica quel al trada de toccanto officio de sastre Madrid, 1589.

Since your grandfather seems to have taught you how to apply Alcega's system, along with other even more ancient Medieval systems that are lost to time, perhaps you might like to explain to us why this archaic knowledge is equal to a modern system. Giles certainly didn't seem to think that these ancient systems were the equal of modern post-Wampen systems. I am sure Giles would have ridiculed any suggestion to this effect and might have likened it to thinking that the pre-Copernican view of the solar system with the sun rotating around the earth was equal or superior to the modern model on account of its greater ancient wisdom.

On P144 Giles states that Wyatt, 1820 credited the introduction of the inch measure and square to Mr B. Read. However, George Atkinson of 23 Castle Street, Falcon Square claims the credit of having first introduced them around 1799:

"I am well known to the trade, and can say without fear of contradiction that I was the first person who used the inch measure and square...I made an inch measure of parchment, marked it with inches, halves and quarters; I applied it and found it practicable. I considered a foot square would be useful in marking the cloth. I had one made: marked it with inches, halves, and quarters; this led to a square of two feet by one, which is the square in use at this time. From the use of the inch measure, the square, and great application, I reduced the trade of a tailor to a system. When I first began to use the inch measure, I was laughed at and ridiculed by the trade in general, as being of no utility...It is now 40 years since I commenced it, and I have the gratification to see and know that it is not only used in this country, but in every known part of the globe where we have communication."

Honestly, I think it exceedingly fanciful to think that if you regress to a methodology that even the Amish would find archaic, we would uncover such extraordinary ancient wisdom that the modern way of doing things (Victorian being considered modern) would appear to be little but foolish industrial shortcuts.

#92 Sator

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 11:26 PM

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Why do I have to keep repeating myself like a stuck record:

Let me quote myself:


Feel free to prove me wrong if you can, but I have never seen a pure period costume draft published by The Cutter & Tailor. Never once! What this suggests is that if someone wanted to recreate Henry VIII clothes, they would be told to enquire with a theatrical costume making journal (these used to exist - I have stumbled across titles, although I never really paid much attention).


(nb I don't consider the publication of an Edwardian styled lounge coat when the New Edwardian style became high fashion to be period costume)

There is clearly a need for a forum that caters for the needs of costumer makers, reproducers of period garments or whoever has an interest in period attire whether Elizabethan, ancient Chinese, classical Greco-Roman or ancient Egyptian. It just happens that this forum isn't it, and never will be, because I never will want to dress like Henry VIII or Beau Brummell. If I do start to dress as Napoleon Bonaparte put me away in a mental asylum. By coming here, you might as well be invading a photography forum, or a mountain climbing forum.


In 1969 the Edwardian era was about 55 years old. If you look at James Bond films around circa 1965-70 you still see New Edwardian features on Connery or Moore's coats. The Edwardian era was to them not much more than the 1950-60s is to us (ie about 50-60 years old). To us, the Edwardian era is about 100 years old. I do not see any example of The Tailor & Cutter in the 1960s showing patterns from the 1860-70s.

Now let me repeat myself for the millionth time. Find me an example of a published T&C pattern showing a totally out-of-fashion period costume.

#93 Martin Stall

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 01:01 AM

I've been eyeing this thread for a while and I must say, it's pretty odd.

I fully understand how people of all skill levels and based on various origins of interest want to join and learn from us. I'm fine with that. If a nice guy comes into my shop asking for some help with a steampunk costume, I'll help him if I'm not busy.

But Sator built and is hosting this forum for the proliferation of tailoring. If to him that means keeping a sharp focus, that's his choice. This is Sator's home, he makes the rules. Maybe he's not nice enough sometimes, that's not for me to judge. But he reigns supreme and I'm glad he does.

Opening doors to other forms of tailoring dilutes greatly the power of the forum as a knowledge base. It would cause a very diffuse audience, which no tailor in life has ever wanted. It would attract a specific audience that doesn't bring tailoring any value (through no fault of theirs, only due to the nature of those interests) and it would reduce the number of tailors joining us as members.

My opinion? Let the man do his job. If he's not nice? Tell him about his attitude, but I really don't see why he needs to be challenged at length about the decisions and the policy he's trying to maintain - and let's not forget, that policy is in the interest of nothing but the art of tailoring.

*climbs off his high horse*
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#94 Sator

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 09:59 AM

A little summary for those who are confused by this thread.

1. It is important for a forum (or a magazine) to have a niche interest. The niche interest of this forum is contemporary professional tailored garments. It is not a lingerie making forum, a quilt making forum, or a period costume forum. It should not be opened up to cater for all sewing interests because it would "dilute the brand" and discourage real tailors from joining and participating.

2. If you want a forum that focuses on lingerie making or period costume making please feel free to set up your own forum. I am under no obligation to host a forum that caters to whatever sewing interests you have that are outside of this forum's niche interests. Here is how you do it:

i) Register a domain name eg lingeriemakingforum.com, periodcostumeforum.com, thedressmakersforum.com
ii) Pay for a webhosting service
iii) Upload your forum software to your website (some of these are free/open source)
iv) Set up your forum rules and format

If you need help and support please contact your forum software maker or your webhosting service.

This thread is now closed for discussion.




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