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The Thomas Mahon thread.


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#19 Sator

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 07:36 AM

Thanks for chiming in Will.

We have noticed that the cut of Thomas Mahon's coats are similar to what is currently coming out of A&S. I believe Thomas Mahon taught John Hitchcock how to cut coats. It is often hard to tell the difference between their work. The work of other (old and new) A&S cutters can often be very different. However, as the 1970s A&S photo shows, there is still an overall familial similarity.

#20 Sator

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 07:49 AM

But is sure that a crooked coat is a wrong coat,that the stripes going off an angle at the shoulder are a fault?
Could not be a characteristic,a conscious taste choice?


It is only in Austro-German tailoring that it is considered correct to avoid having the stripes going off on an angle, and the cut is specially made to make the stripes straight at the shoulders. However, even if they aren't made up to run straight, you can still reduce excessive angle at the shoulder by avoiding a crooked cut for a striped cloth.

#21 Sator

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 08:06 AM

that doesn't mean that the unpadded shoulder has to look bad. It's the "extreme" extension of the shoulders that makes it look "weird", at least for my taste


I agree that if you have a lot of shoulder extension and no/minimal padding you are going to end up with messy, droopy shoulders. During the age when unpadded shoulders were fashionable (Victorian-Edwardian era) shoulders were significantly narrower than they became during the 20th century up till today.

You don't see this droopy, over extended shoulder on older A&S coats. You don't see this on Scholte's work either - whose coats appear to have a reasonable amount of shoulder padding. So it's not a question of house style but an individual cutter's mistake, pure and simple.

#22 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 08:10 AM

As someone who has been out of the trade for some years, what price would we be talking about for the suits illustrated?

My reason for asking is that the styles and look of the suits do not appear to be any different from the suits we made in the fifties and sixties.

That light, continental suit looked as though it was cut with a very old pattern, look at the sleeve seam, it looks like a fifty fifty sleeve and the sleeve head has far too much fulness, even without shoulder pads it should be cleaner than that.

Edited by MANSIE WAUCH, 19 January 2011 - 08:11 AM.


#23 Sator

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 08:31 AM

I believe that in both cases they charge in the order of several thousand pounds for a two piece lounge suit. Recently, a German TV documentary quoted a figure of 6000 Euros for Thomas Mahon but this is widely believed to be a misunderstanding or misquotation.

In the case, of Mr Mahon, he appears to be trying to stick to a circa 1910 cutting system passed down as the House System in order to stick to tradition. Hence the 1900s period cutting features like the narrow back neck on a crooked shoulder. This is the reason the extreme conservativeness of the cut. However, this sort of disdain for fashion and preference for what is almost a period costume has itself become somewhat fashionable - thanks to the internet.

#24 Will

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 09:56 AM

As someone who has been out of the trade for some years, what price would we be talking about for the suits illustrated?


2,195 sterling for jacket and trousers, or roughly 2,600 euros.

#25 carpu65

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 02:22 PM

In the case, of Mr Mahon, he appears to be trying to stick to a circa 1910 cutting system passed down as the House System in order to stick to tradition. Hence the 1900s period cutting features like the narrow back neck on a crooked shoulder. This is the reason the extreme conservativeness of the cut. However, this sort of disdain for fashion and preference for what is almost a period costume has itself become somewhat fashionable - thanks to the internet.


So,ironically Thomas Mahon would be the perfect tailor for a new "new Ewardian".

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Edited by carpu65, 19 January 2011 - 02:30 PM.


#26 Sator

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 04:45 PM

I have edited my above post commenting on the fit of the coats. I have not had to edit the comments on cut and fit at all. I have only changed the picture of the coats to those clearly confirmed on Will's blog as having been made by Mr Mahon. I have provided the relevant links to the blog that show that the coat under discussion is really a Mahon rather than an A&S.

#27 Sator

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 05:05 PM

So,ironically Thomas Mahon would be the perfect tailor for a new "new Edwardian".


Well, to be more exact - Old Edwardian. Most New Edwardian cuts use a modern cutting system with Edwardian style features added.

I also suspect that the reason A&S don't cut a Scholte drape coat (with the "rolling waves" of excess cloth folds at the front of armscye) may be because in 1906, when A&S was founded, Scholte had yet to develop this cut, which only became popular around the 1930s.

#28 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 05:08 PM

the coat under discussion is really a Mahon rather than an A&S.


But they seem to all inherit the same characteristics, as the systems seems to be the same. They all carry the same issues that has been pointed out again and again so it really is hard to separate Mr. Mahon, Mr, Hitchcock and A&S house style. Mr. DeBoise on the other hand, while they still have the "bent stripe" phenomena that Sator is not fond of, I find his cuts more appealing, better fitting and honestly he's the better cutter between the A&S lot. (IMHO)
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#29 greger

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 05:49 PM

In the case, of Mr Mahon, he appears to be trying to stick to a circa 1910 cutting system passed down as the House System in order to stick to tradition. Hence the 1900s period cutting features like the narrow back neck on a crooked shoulder. This is the reason the extreme conservativeness of the cut. However, this sort of disdain for fashion and preference for what is almost a period costume has itself become somewhat fashionable - thanks to the internet.


Richard Anderson still uses J. P. Thorntons methods. And says in his book that he still uses it. You can watch one of his cutters swiping out for the shoulder points on youtube whatever method he is using.

The narrow back neck has advantages that the new methods don't have. And there are good reasons for both. Tailors who learned these old method were still around into the 70 and knew why, and why the new methods came. Some of them would never do some of the newer methods because they thought they were shoddy methods. Many of the old tailors today learned on the newer methods and don't know the reasons for the the previous methods . Some of the old methods were abandoned by the young just for something new and different and to prove they were not still childishly following daddy. It's the young mans way of stepping out. Some of the new reasons were/are for fashion reason, so have nothing to do with better. It is the nature of mankind. And anybody who puts out a new book of pattern systems is following the fashions of the day and point out reasons to abandon the old books so they $ell more new book$. Some of the "advances" were really about fashions, as some cutters prove they are doing very well with systems over a hundred years old and aren't using those so called newer advances. One cutter, more than a hundred years ago, brought back some methods that were, maybe he said, 60 years old. Most of the new cutters had no knowledge of these old methods and thought they were new methods (In todays world these methods would be at least a 170 years old and still useful). Look at the ragland. When you move in it how does it react? If that seam were somewhere else how would it react? A wise tailor thinks about everything so he can make the best. So many tailors limit them sleeves to this or that. If you have both the narrow back neck and wide back neck you may find you would rather wear this one day the the other another day because there is good in both.

#30 jukes

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 05:51 PM

I believe that in both cases they charge in the order of several thousand pounds for a two piece lounge suit. Recently, a German TV documentary quoted a figure of 6000 Euros for Thomas Mahon but this is widely believed to be a misunderstanding or misquotation.

In the case, of Mr Mahon, he appears to be trying to stick to a circa 1910 cutting system passed down as the House System in order to stick to tradition. Hence the 1900s period cutting features like the narrow back neck on a crooked shoulder. This is the reason the extreme conservativeness of the cut. However, this sort of disdain for fashion and preference for what is almost a period costume has itself become somewhat fashionable - thanks to the internet.


The above comments raise another debate, would we prefer garments with a bit of "character" (good or bad) or the same mundane straight boxy garments that we see today.

#31 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 05:54 PM

STRAIGHT, BOXY AND STRUCTURED! :frantics:
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#32 greger

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 06:02 PM

STRAIGHT, BOXY AND STRUCTURED! :frantics:


Tailoring for you should be easy. Do you like screws or nails? Lumber will take either. I do recommend suspenders for comfort.

#33 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 06:10 PM

You people keep yelling 1910's, but I'm seeing 40's/50's. OMG it has a bias shoulder MUST be Edwardian! Sorry but A&S is not Edwardian in cut. Look at Scholtes pieces from the Era, it was none of this seamed up bubblegum we see before us now. Sometime after scholte they changed systems, perhaps it's a Thornton as Gregor states is in the book, but it is a loose variation. Hell Mr. Hitchock states "I truly believe the Scholte cut that I specialise in, is the best soft tailoring found any where in the world." but it doesn't seem like it. In fact I would venture to state Mr. BeBoise's cuts are closer to Scholte than any other A&S Alma Mater.

Seriously, scholte's cut was clean <clicky>

Sator please note, that all of Scholte's coats have the bent line syndrome, so if his cut is straight, then his stripes should be straight yeah? (just curious)

I have a hypothesis. Could it be possible that scholte did not pass on his cuts? Afterwards A&S tried to recreate the system? Because if Mr. Hitcock is convinces his system IS scholte's, yet Mr. Anderson swears it's thornton, somethings up, especially since no A&S Alma Mater's cuts reflect Scholte's cuts save for Mr. DeBoise (who has had influence from Mr. Sexton. Odd eh?

Edited by J. Maclochlainn, 19 January 2011 - 06:11 PM.

Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#34 Schneidergott

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 04:02 AM

Because if Mr. Hitcock is convinces his system IS scholte's, yet Mr. Anderson swears it's thornton, somethings up, especially since no A&S Alma Mater's cuts reflect Scholte's cuts save for Mr. DeBoise (who has had influence from Mr. Sexton. Odd eh?


It's actually the former Huntsman cutter Richard Anderson (not Per Anderson) who was taught the Thornton method by his teacher.

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#35 I.Brackley

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 04:21 AM

:Thinking:

plus ša change....?

American. Circa 1905

Perhaps less in common then I first thought? or more? Hmmmm.....

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#36 carpu65

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 05:07 AM

Well, to be more exact - Old Edwardian. Most New Edwardian cuts use a modern cutting system with Edwardian style features added.


Only three pieces (waistcoat with lapels) ,single breasted,three buttons,wearing with a round false collar.
Could be interesting for the Bunny Rogers of XXI century.

I also suspect that the reason A&S don't cut a Scholte drape coat (with the "rolling waves" of excess cloth folds at the front of armscye) may be because in 1906, when A&S was founded, Scholte had yet to develop this cut, which only became popular around the 1930s.


Who is today the Scholte "heir"?
Huntsman?




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