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Cut-On Lapels on Full Dress


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#37 Sator

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 07:19 PM

Sator, there are tailors who can make some of these garments quite fine. Usually with a modern twist. Plenty good to fit in.


Who are these tailors who you speculate make such coat for clients for wear in the real world? Have you ever made one for a client? Or your father?

Keep in mind that this style of coat went totally out of fashion around the end of the Edwardian era. I doubt that even your grandfather would have only made them as a young man, if he was in business during the Edwardian era. Even he may have never made such a dress coat.

Making ugly Nosferatu coats is easy, however, just as the Teddy Boys made it impossible to wear anything that smacked of kitsch Edwardiana in their time, making odd cuts of ancient dress coats look respectable is virtually impossible today because it will look too steam punk.

#38 Sator

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 07:31 PM

White tie worn as court dress, not court dress itself.


For evening events in the presence of royalty dress breeches used to be worn.

I take it you regularly attend state events with royalty? Which monarchs have recently complemented your dress coat with cut on lapels and strap?

Or is this just a big iGent fantasy? :poke:

#39 Qirrel

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:40 AM

Who are these tailors who you speculate make such coat for clients for wear in the real world? Have you ever made one for a client? Or your father?

Keep in mind that this style of coat went totally out of fashion around the end of the Edwardian era. I doubt that even your grandfather would have only made them as a young man, if he was in business during the Edwardian era. Even he may have never made such a dress coat.

Making ugly Nosferatu coats is easy, however, just as the Teddy Boys made it impossible to wear anything that smacked of kitsch Edwardiana in their time, making odd cuts of ancient dress coats look respectable is virtually impossible today because it will look too steam punk.


Very steampunk:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

The similarities aren't that striking, to be honest.

If someone wants to wear a dress coat with cut on lapels because they think it looks better than the contemporary coat cut, then so be it. The answer to which looks the best is not objective, it depends on the tastes of the particular person. If someone came to my ball in a dress coat with cut on lapels I would probably notice it, but no more than that. It does not deviate that much from the contemporary coat; I would rather think of it as a bit of personal flair. Besides, why should we always consider "steampunk" and "nosferatu" to be so negative? If this is how they want to dress, let them do it. I couldn't prevent them from doing it anyways.

#40 0815newbie

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 02:04 AM

That is obviously not what I am longing to look like ^^

#41 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 02:14 AM

OMFG, let's get overly dramatic about this. SHEESH!

A well made coat is a bloody well made coat OMG it has a SEAM! guess what? us fat guys like vertical seams it makes us feel sexy, and isn't that the point of clothes?




[Things on my list to do just to piss off the neigh-sayers]
[1. Modern coat drafted to old thirds or Devere's just to prove all you need are the base points of fit as style is added last]
[2. Make crooked coats for a living in a modern context (starting to do this now)]
[3. Make me a cut on lapel dress coat for evening wear]

keep em coming :spiteful:
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#42 0815newbie

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 03:29 AM

Well, I am feeling sorry for causing this kind of trouble.

#43 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 03:50 AM

No it's normal, we all have different takes on style and we are not afraid to get a little vocal but it's all in fun, a little tongue in cheek I say.

Honestly, if a customer was to come to me asking for this, I'll steer him towards a more 20's feel, but for myself, I'd rock this cut :spiteful:
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#44 Sator

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 10:05 AM

Next thing to add to your list: surprise a client by making him a coat with cut-on lapels with seam running down the centre front and waist seam. See if he cares.

The attitude here is that "it's only a seam" - who cares??? We'll see what the reaction is.

[3. Make me a cut on lapel dress coat for evening wear]


Anyway, you don't count - people expect you to look steam punk. No one else would be able wear it without looking a little ridiculous.

#45 Sator

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 10:08 AM

Well, I do, and should I appear in the tabloids in it, I'll send you a link.



Which tailor made it for you? Or is it just an old garment?

BTW you don't have to be wearing it. You can still show us a picture of it.

And you really wear it in the real world? Or is it to a Victorian dress-up club?

Personally, I am calling BS on this one.

#46 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 10:11 AM

LOL I like not counting :D gives me a greater amount of freedom.
Like I say though I would steer a client towards the 20's cut, but for a
bigger man, I think the vertical seam would be slimming.
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#47 Noble Savage

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 10:34 AM

Or is it to a Victorian dress-up club?


Do such clubs really exist?

Edited by Noble Savage, 03 February 2011 - 10:41 AM.


#48 Sator

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 10:40 AM

And at least the waist seam on a lounge coat will do something useful.

You see, I have no problems with adding extra panels and seams if they do something meaningful. However, after experimenting with cut-on lapels and strap on a dress coat, I don't really see the point. It's no better than a fashion designer adding pointless decorative seams (or zippers) on a coat.

As I have already said, you do get a convex lapel crease line from the cut on lapel - at least before the bridle is set. However, most tailors are going to just set a straight bridle and this will eliminate the convexity of the crease line.

The waist seam on a dress coat is there as a historical remnant. It doesn't do anything. In theory it might do something if you cut the strap like this:

Posted Image

I've tried it, but in practice it doesn't work that way because the strap is too narrow to exert a meaningful effect. Most cutters eg Thornton don't bother with that little "dart" formed by the strap at the front.

Ultimately, the cutting purist in me doesn't like seams on any coat unless there is some technical justification for them. Whether it just comes from a fashion designer's whim or whether it is "just historical", neither is good enough a justification as far as I am concerned.

Then again, when I grasped all these things, I also realised that I was just reinventing the wheel. The Edwardian cutter who brilliantly excised those dated seams from his dress coat pattern fully understood all of what I just said. I could almost hear him talking to me explaining what he had done.

#49 Sator

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 10:48 AM

Do such clubs really exist?


Talk to Charlie. He belongs to one of them. It would be a perfect place for you to wear your Victorian dress coat.

Also Masonic groups like to wear these sorts of steam punk type of garments for their get togethers. :Straight Face:

#50 Noble Savage

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 10:50 AM

The waist seam on a dress coat is there as a historical remnant. It doesn't do anything.


All the more reason to have it on a dress coat as a sign of good breeding, champagne bottles not yet smashed, and tailors made to work overtime cutting and stitching historical seams.

#51 Sator

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 11:44 AM

All the more reason to have it on a dress coat as a sign of good breeding.


Next time you are at a state dinner make sure to lecture Prince Philips on this point, since his dress coat lacks such an anachronism.

In any case, this sort proliferation of decorative seams is pretty common amongst fashion designers, especially in women's wear. So it is actually very, very "common".

#52 greger

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:22 PM

The question is, What is culture? It's just thoughts, isn't it?
Clothes are part of culture, so part of thoughts.
Each cultural group has its own set of rules for clothes.
The "rules" for clothes don't come first, otherwise it would be putting the cart in front of the horse.
Those rules are often bent by its peers. Sometimes for a conversation piece.
Some people belong to several white tie groups and could have a number of white tie rigs.
A group might have latitude this way and another will have latitude another way, and some might not have any latitude.
The tailors job is to understand the culture of the client so he can make the clothes properly to fit that culture as the client wishes.
Tailors are not the clothing police.
If you don't understand the cultural reason for the clothes, then you are making a blank.
So, Sator, it isn't what my granddad wore, but the cultural reasons why somebody wants the clothes that mattered to him.
He certainly isn't the only tailor like that.
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#53 Charles R Bingley

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 09:09 PM

Talk to Charlie. He belongs to one of them. It would be a perfect place for you to wear your Victorian dress coat.

Also Masonic groups like to wear these sorts of steam punk type of garments for their get togethers. :Straight Face:


I assure you Sator that my better peers will notice the difference in cut immediately and comment on it (actually, I belong to different clubs that have different ideals: my Victorian strolling group (of which is active once a year or so) mainly conducts our activities during the day and evening dress has never been worn whilst my NSC Club mainly follows anything worn from Edwardian to the present day and I have been advising them of late on how to steer clear of faux pas, inaccuracies, vulgarities and the like)...

And I regard steampunk with little regard as mere cosplayers...
Causam cedare non habet eo

#54 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 10:26 PM

And I regard steampunk with little regard as mere cosplayers...



I am sure many steam-punks would hold you in the same regard. No disrespect, just playing Devils Advocate.
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!




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