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Cut-On Lapels on Full Dress


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#91 Jake K

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 12:47 AM

I have an question concerning that statement.

If you use midnight blue cloth should you also use midnight blue satin lapels? Never seen that before but would possibly look better, would it not?


Man, is midnight blue satin or satin grosgrain hard to find, but I have some. In my view, though, traditional "black" facings look just fine, even good. I would call that the "norm". I.e. midnight blue barathea with black silk facings, either satin or grosgrain. Of course, this is just what we Yanks refer to as a "tuxedo". I'm definitely open to the forum's opinion on this.
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#92 Kerry

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 12:59 AM

Man, is midnight blue satin or satin grosgrain hard to find, but I have some. In my view, though, traditional "black" facings look just fine, even good. I would call that the "norm". I.e. midnight blue barathea with black silk facings, either satin or grosgrain. Of course, this is just what we Yanks refer to as a "tuxedo". I'm definitely open to the forum's opinion on this.


RJW stock both satin and grosgrain in midnight blue.

#93 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 04:34 AM

Pfff... Monkey is easy. Chimp might not be that hard either. Now, think orang outang. There's a challenge :Big Grin:
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Now that fellow could wear one of my suits, apart from the long arms. (I would have to shorten mine for him!)


Hang on! Is that a female?

Edited by MANSIE WAUCH, 06 February 2011 - 04:34 AM.


#94 Nishijin

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 04:42 AM

Hang on! Is that a female?


It seams to be, yes. Hadn't paid attention when I borrowed the picture. Anyway, male orang have male boobs too. They have as much skin as a bodybuilder who lost his muscles (though they may have the muscles hidden under all that skin).
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#95 Jake K

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 05:18 AM

RJW stock both satin and grosgrain in midnight blue.


yep. that's what took me a while to find :)
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#96 Noble Savage

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 06:58 AM

midnight blue satin or satin grosgrain


What do you think about the other weaves?

Edited by Noble Savage, 06 February 2011 - 07:00 AM.


#97 greger

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 08:51 AM

Nishijin, Your to limiting about clothes of the past. People can invent reason for todays past so it doesn't really fall into a study of history. Everything doesn't fall between history and costume. The reenactment of the Civil War times, here in the US, is more for fun than historical research. Those clothes are made by the millions.


Sato, The word distinguish is a good word to use. Steam-punk is not at all even remotely the same as a gentleman who would like to wear something from the past that he thinks will fit into the occasion that he is wearing it for. The purpose of going to a tailor is so that he can adapt it for how he wants it to be for today. In other words, not necessary an exact copy of the past, but sometimes best to grab from the past and adapt than grabbing from the new and adapting to whatever the person wants. If you look at enough pictures from even as far back as the 1840 you once in awhile see that some tailors were skilled well beyond their peers and their clothes could easily fit into todays world. Trying to turn an A student into a C student isn't progress. Through out the years once in awhile I go to a library and look up books on famous men and look at their clothes, some of the pictures would be portrait, so you don't see much below the collar. Do you have any idea how many ways there are to make a normal regular collar for SB-DB coats? This dress coat at the local museum that was on display for a couple decades., (until I bring a camera, then its gone) custom made, the sleeve cap was like none other I have ever seen. It is a very very different sleeve cap. That coat then and now is a work of art and would fit into any white tie event today. Can't say the other white tie garments on display beside it would fit in so well with todays clothes, but who ever made that coat was not an ordinary tailor. My point is to push excellence and not mediocrity. To make garments that transcend the date and time they are made for, as the coat mentioned above, is what every tailor should strive for. Therefore, you can sometimes easily grab from the past and make for today. When a customer comes in to the tailor he may have a very different want than what the tailor perceive or could even imagine on his own. Anyway, there are some old tailors who have been taught this line of thinking and are very shrewd with it and they are the ones that should write the lessons.

#98 Sator

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 10:21 AM

The trouble about midnight is that it is actually almost impossible to distinguish from black unless you place them side by side in good light. I personally don't really see the point.

However, I have seen dress suits and dinner suits made up in what is more like a navy colour. Maybe it's only in more recent times that cloth merchants have started to call only extremely inky shades of the darkest navy "midnight".

#99 greger

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 02:55 PM

It has to do with cameras and lights. Some types of lights and the black coat looks green. Midnight blue and the picture shows black. Facings are a different type of cloth, so they can be black.

#100 Sator

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 03:49 PM

Yes, it's often said that black looks greenish under artificial like whereas midnight looks blacker than black. However, even under artificial light, bright or dim I struggle to see any difference. I have certainly never noticed any tendency for blacks to look greenish at all. It's all a mystery to me to be quite honest.

#101 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 05:02 PM

I've notice three forms of blacks

Green/black
Blue/black
brown/black

All under sun light and compared next to each other.
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#102 Nishijin

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 10:01 PM

I can see a difference between black and midnight, really. I don't see black as greenish, but usually with yellow light (usual 3200K electric lightening), it appears like a very dark grey, while midnight is deep dark. In the Formal book from Dugdale, I spoted Midnight because it was blacker than the black, even in day light. But usually, it is just a very dark navy, which look blue in the sun, and black indeed in the artificial light (while lighter navy still look blue).

I also think that a dark blue for evening cloth can be stunning. But it difficult to match silk for lapels, because against black silk, the coat does look blue, not black like midnight. I have to try midnight grosgrain from RJW.


I have to say too that cloth today are not what they used to be. I made some dinner trousers for a customer, to match the dinner coat he has from his grandfather. The coat was made in 1960, in a heavy barathea, with a very very dense weave, making very small "pebbles". I came with a dozen samples of black barathea, none of them really matched : place against the coat, they all looked shiny, and thus dark grey, while the coat itself did not reflect any light at all. Black and blacker. Since then, I've looked at black barathea every time I have an opportunity, I've never seen anything like this 50 years old one.


Lightening too has changed. In France, the usual filament lamps are getting banned, and replaced by low-energy lamps. LED is more and more common. The new lamps do not give the same light, and it changes perception of colour.
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#103 Charles R Bingley

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 12:02 AM

Walking in the street in white tie, the most probable comment would not be "see how smart he is", but "look, a magician !".
:sorcerer:


TBH, I've had more positive comments than negative ones. Plus, if you're in a group similarly attired it's strength in numbers.

Seriously, there were times when I thought 'what is the point?' and be done with dressing well and started wearing baseball caps, shell suits and acting like a delinquent on drugs and drink and like the rest of the populace who does not give a damn to avoid negative (mostly through ignorance and non-education), homophobic, racist (rather amusing since I dress more like an Englishman than any of them do), classist (e.g. 'Tory scum', also ironic given that I'm 'working class' and would be classed as 'financially challenged'), etc remarks (which I have received as does my friends also) but thankfully I do not give a monkeys (or the chimpanzees or a damn) about what other people may think or whether they approve based on their narrow world-view because if I do then I'm under their influence and control rather than under my own influence and control and if they could dress like chavs, goths, emos, The Baroness Gaga of Germanotta or whatever subcultural or questionable celebrity trend they come up with to blend into a group or mindset or to express their indiviuality (or both) and get away with it then why can't I also do the same according to my own ideals and tastes (according to traditional and historical sartorial standards) and get away with it without the fear of the hypocratical nonsense and paradox of 'dressing to blend in vs dressing to be individual' being pushed upon me thereby trying to dictate what I ought or ought not to wear in a free and democratic society?

:p :) &c

Edited by Charles R Bingley, 07 February 2011 - 12:16 AM.

Causam cedare non habet eo

#104 Charles R Bingley

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 12:04 AM

I can see a difference between black and midnight, really. I don't see black as greenish, but usually with yellow light (usual 3200K electric lightening), it appears like a very dark grey, while midnight is deep dark. In the Formal book from Dugdale, I spoted Midnight because it was blacker than the black, even in day light. But usually, it is just a very dark navy, which look blue in the sun, and black indeed in the artificial light (while lighter navy still look blue).

I also think that a dark blue for evening cloth can be stunning. But it difficult to match silk for lapels, because against black silk, the coat does look blue, not black like midnight. I have to try midnight grosgrain from RJW.


I have to say too that cloth today are not what they used to be. I made some dinner trousers for a customer, to match the dinner coat he has from his grandfather. The coat was made in 1960, in a heavy barathea, with a very very dense weave, making very small "pebbles". I came with a dozen samples of black barathea, none of them really matched : place against the coat, they all looked shiny, and thus dark grey, while the coat itself did not reflect any light at all. Black and blacker. Since then, I've looked at black barathea every time I have an opportunity, I've never seen anything like this 50 years old one.


Lightening too has changed. In France, the usual filament lamps are getting banned, and replaced by low-energy lamps. LED is more and more common. The new lamps do not give the same light, and it changes perception of colour.


Most likely due to CH, etc cloths have become lighter and lighter. I've also had difficuly matching cloth weight and weave: modern weaves are corser and not as fine as the old weaves under the same weight.
Causam cedare non habet eo

#105 Jake K

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 03:52 AM

I've notice three forms of blacks

Green/black
Blue/black
brown/black

All under sun light and compared next to each other.


This is because ALL black dyes are made from a root, lighter hue. Green and indigo blue are the most common dyes to be stretched to black. (green is cheapest)
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#106 greger

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 07:39 AM

TBH, I've had more positive comments than negative ones. Plus, if you're in a group similarly attired it's strength in numbers.

Seriously, there were times when I thought 'what is the point?' and be done with dressing well and started wearing baseball caps, shell suits and acting like a delinquent on drugs and drink and like the rest of the populace who does not give a damn to avoid negative (mostly through ignorance and non-education), homophobic, racist (rather amusing since I dress more like an Englishman than any of them do), classist (e.g. 'Tory scum', also ironic given that I'm 'working class' and would be classed as 'financially challenged'), etc remarks (which I have received as does my friends also) but thankfully I do not give a monkeys (or the chimpanzees or a damn) about what other people may think or whether they approve based on their narrow world-view because if I do then I'm under their influence and control rather than under my own influence and control and if they could dress like chavs, goths, emos, The Baroness Gaga of Germanotta or whatever subcultural or questionable celebrity trend they come up with to blend into a group or mindset or to express their indiviuality (or both) and get away with it then why can't I also do the same according to my own ideals and tastes (according to traditional and historical sartorial standards) and get away with it without the fear of the hypocratical nonsense and paradox of 'dressing to blend in vs dressing to be individual' being pushed upon me thereby trying to dictate what I ought or ought not to wear in a free and democratic society?

:p :) &c



Well said.



#107 Sator

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 10:09 AM

To say that there is only a choice between dressing up in full Victorian regalia for the Madhatter's tea party or wearing baseball caps is utterly ridiculous. Anyone who holds modern tailoring in such contempt should really find a costume forum to discuss this sort of thing.

In any case, a proper Victorian gentleman would have worn the latest fashion made by his bespoke tailor - not some moth eaten castaway that was a hundred years. If you really want to take your cue from the Victorian gentleman go to your bespoke tailor and have a dress suit made up, whether on Savile Row or elsewhere. Go to your jeweller to have a platinum stud and cufflink set made up with your initials on it. Go to your bespoke shoemaker to have dress pumps made up.

BTW there has been a rush of costume threads. It is quite enough. The forum rules state clearly:

http://www.cutterand...p?showtopic=803

Those of you who want a costume wearing forum need to create a place for that purpose. This is not the forum for this sort of thing.

This thread is entering too far into antique costuming topics and for this reason is being locked.




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