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Ivy League bespoke.


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#19 carpu65

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 02:02 AM

To call anything Ivy League "bespoke" is just something that never happened in America, sorry. Brooks has always made more fitted models, during some decades more than others, but they don't typify Ivy League.

Well i have found this:

Posted Image

Posted Image

#20 carpu65

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 02:03 AM

The modern Ivy League fitted-waist reinterpretation is something innovated by the Japanese and Thom Browne.


About Chipp:

"We always had some waist suppression, more than Brooks and Press....
We didn’t have darts, but we had a little more side suppression. But it was a very fine difference
".
http://www.ivy-style...old-block.html.



It was also important to the purists to pull what Americans call the "natural shoulder" for this look- the sleeve seam was completely pressed open, the sleeve head was minimal, and the true makers pulled the sleeve cap back on the press for a lengthy time to make sure it had no roping of any kind. If there was any roping or cap height, there might have been violence in the factory.

This is a true Ivy league shoulder?

Posted Image

Edited by carpu65, 11 February 2011 - 02:04 AM.


#21 carpu65

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 03:54 AM

Update:
I have found this pattern from "American Gentleman" may 1925.
Is a Ivy league sack?

Posted Image

#22 carpu65

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 04:46 AM

This is the pattern for the sack double breasted.

Maybe the Brooks DB could be like this.

Posted Image

This is the fashion sketch for double breasted; the coat is undarted,but have shape (with the iron?)

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And this is the single breasted.
Note the coat without darts,the shoulders,and the trousers flat front.
But also here,is not an unshaped coat.
Remember that these pictures are from a tailor magazine,so are bespoke suits.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by carpu65, 11 February 2011 - 04:51 AM.

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#23 Nishijin

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 05:36 AM

Look at your magnification of the coats. OK, there is shape on the side, but not on the chest. The shape is created by the underarm dart and the side seam. But the chest is flat.

Though sometimes it is possible to give shape to the chest without a front/chest dart, it is not that usual, and it is not the style of the american sack coat anyway.
http://www.paulgrassart.com

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#24 carpu65

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:32 AM

But,essentially,which is the benefit of undarted coat?
Why the success of ivy sack suit?
Is maybe that the unshaped-natural shoulder coat is more easy to fit for ready to wear customers?
And is a very comfortable suit for work...comfortable like..a sack?
And this is for the absence of the darts?

#25 Nishijin

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:56 AM

There is no benefit, it is only a fashion.
http://www.paulgrassart.com

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#26 Sator

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 10:01 AM

Another thing to keep in mind is that the term "sack coat" is just the old fashioned American term for a what is called a "lounge coat" in British English. The modern German term is still "Sakko" (German for "sack" is also "Sack"). This is partly because a lot of American tailors in the old days emigrated from Central Europe - many of them were Jewish.

Apparel Arts Winter 1933-34 says the following:

In business suits there are two types of construction, one the so-called lounge model which features ease of line and rougher fabrics, the other the sack jacket which is built along: body tracing lines and is best adapted to the smoother cloths.


American texts of this period sometimes even the term "lounge coat" to mean a less fitted type of jacket. So, in fact, a "sack coat" is more fitted! :wacko:

The term "sack coat" in American English does not imply that the coat is loosely fitted or sloppy at all. In fact, it can mean the opposite and that it is more fitted.

There are also plenty of American texts showing "sack coats" with or without a front dart, just as there are older German texts from up till the 1930s showing Sakkos with and without a front dart. British texts stop showing undarted lounges around the 1920s. After the 1940s, only the Americans continue with publishing patterns for undarted lounge coats.

#27 Jake K

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 12:56 PM

Well i have found this:

Posted Image

Posted Image


huh? of course brooks offered custom, and started to again at some point after this article. confused as to the point.
Jacob Kozinn
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#28 Jake K

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 02:59 PM

PS. You guys do know that Martin Greenfield was making Brooks' custom up until they opened their own factory recently, right? And that's one of the reasons he got behind Band of Outsiders and Rag and Bone so strongly?

Ecccch someone should put a zipper on my mouth... but you guys have earned your information in my view :D
Jacob Kozinn
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#29 Anathema

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 12:24 PM

PS. You guys do know that Martin Greenfield was making Brooks' custom up until they opened their own factory recently, right?


If by "custom" you mean MTM, then yes. it was not bespoke however. The custom tailoring mentioned in the article entailed the drafting of individual patterns which is different from the Brooks program that Greenfield was involved in.

Edited by Anathema, 17 February 2011 - 12:25 PM.


#30 carpu65

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 02:11 AM

Ivy League bespoke?

Absolutely and definitively Yes.


Brooks Brothers early 40s:

 brookssarti.png

Brooks Brothers 1950s:

 brooksbespoke.jpg

JPress 1961:

 04_IMG_0018.jpg

JPress 1960s:

 Presssarti.jpg

JPress 1973:

 Jpressworkroom1973.jpg

 

 



#31 murtadza

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 02:40 PM

It's was quite sometime that we get to read an aspiring post in this thread.Thanks signor Carpu for  this wonderful post.Keep them coming with the beautiful illustration.I recognise the illustration from Esky/AA collection but have not come across few others .Are they from an Italian fashion Magazine?

 

 

murtadza

 

 


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#32 Schneidergott

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 07:44 PM

The Ivy League pattern would have to be a "straight" coat, both in terms of neck point and shape of the single pieces/ seams. Very little waist suppression at front- and side seams, no flaring at the hips. So this pattern is not Ivy league:

 

USdraftSB.jpg

 

My guess is that it would look more like this (I eliminated the front dart):

 

Rundschau_Lounge009copy-1.jpg

 

It's a Rundschau draft from the 50's/ 60's with a boxy silhouette.

 

Many people think that the front dart is there to shape the front waist only, but it's mainly there to shape the front chest, to add some fullness without adding additional ease (which can be done separately).


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#33 Terri

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:41 PM

Wonderful pictures!

#34 jeffrey2117

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 12:04 AM

Hello All,

 

    I always liked the styles from the 1920's and 1930's time period, 

 

Lately, within the last six weeks, I have seen four customer stop by and ask about these style garments, three men and one young lady.

 

There have had several calls from young men asking where to purchase hats from this era also.

 

There have been many changes in attitude in regards to young people in positive way regarding suits in the last couple of years and we should take advantage of this opportunity. 

 

Kind regards

 

Jeffrey2117


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"An intelligent man knows he is ignorant, a ignorant man knows he is intelligent".

#35 carpu65

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:44 AM

Ivy is not necessarily "boxy" or unshaped.

Back before 50s and 60s" Ivy coats ( at Brooks Brothers for exemple ) were pretty shaped.
Shape can be obtained even without front darts, with side darts and ironing.

 

Brooks Brothers 1910s:

 

 1067399.png

 

Brroks Brothers 1939:

 

 BB_1939_3.jpg

 

Even after is the same for the most well cut specimens,like this bespoke coat from Chipp:

 

57hh.jpg

 

So what is a "Ivy" suit?

The single breastedthree buttons coat have natural and unpadded (or almost unpadded) shoulders and undarted front (but in some cases can have slanted darts at side, similar to Florentine Liverano & Liverano works).

Lapels have 3/2 rolls.and back is a single hooked vent..

Are two buttons at the cuffs.

The odd sport coats can have lower patch pockets with flaps (breast pocket can or nor be patch pocket,and in many cases it is not).

Ivy-style tweed sports jackets and suits are often distinguished by detailed quarter-inch stitching from the edge of the lapels down the front of the jacket. This distinctive feature is usually echoed by lapped seams that run across the shoulder, down the back seam, and around the pocket flaps.

Trousers are flat front.

These are the not negotiable features for a American "Ivy league" style of suit or odd coat.

 

 

,


Edited by carpu65, 13 January 2014 - 12:10 PM.


#36 MKennys

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 03:33 PM

The Ivy League Look was as much about styling as the ingredients. And while the ingredients were relatively fixed and admitted new items slowly, the styling came from the campus and was always in a state of flux.


Brock, Bespoke tailor @ M Kenny's Fashions





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