55 replies to this topic

[rs232]

Increasing the waist suppression in the side seam is not the same at all as having darts in the back. Darts are in the right place for anatomy. Too much waist suppression in the side seam will create drags. A trick would be to move the side seam a little backward when increasing waist suppression.

Neck dart is OK on solids, but it will be a mess on stripes.

I feel the same way about back darts and stripes! For women, I accept that this is a necessity. But for normal physique men, one may cut a decent back for up to 25cm chest/waist difference without darts.

It is true that the back is not as clean standing up, but when you reach forward, you need the extra room in the back. Didn't you do an experiment with a friend drawing dots on your back and measuring the increase in distance when you bent over?

As Sator points out, people wear shirts as an outer garment these days and want a "fitted look", so they use darts. It's true that supression at the side seam doesn't quite achieve the same effect, but I think it looks less effeminate.

If you do this, you can do this only with a plain color not with stripes or checkers. And even then I would do it not to the yoke.

The funny thing is that, having said I hate back darts because they ruin stripes, I don't mind that the stripes don't match the front seam of the yoke if it is curved. And I can't explain why!

[Nishijin]

The back is hollow in the waist for men as well as for women. So darts there are the logical answer.
If you like straighter shirts, then good for you ! I myself think that shirts should be ample garments, not too close to the body. But today's fashion is for a close fit, so I look for ways to achieve it.
I own a shirt with princess seams in the front (a panel shirt ?). I've never got the feeling it was efeminate. I didn't even see the princess seams when I bought it.

25cm of waist suppression means 12,5 cm per side, that is way too much to place in a single dart (the one hidden in the side seam). The body is quite flat under the arm, such a big dart will create a lot of problems. We have discussed it at length about coats, shirts are no different for this.

The cut I experimented with today was with side seams moved slightly backward, with a reasonnable dart in it. And I like to have 2 pleats in the back, on each shoulder blade. Those pleats give the needed fabric to move the arms forward, and keep the back tidy when the arms are along the body. I keep them free in the chest area, and then sew them closed at the waist, concealing a dart in the pleating. It is quite the same idea as an action back on a coat, though of course there is no back belt on a shirt .

I'll make drawings for Torry tomorrow (I'll take pictures of the shirt too, but it still needs a few tweakings... fitting oneself is soooo long...).

[rs232]

Paul, I just realised that this is the bespeakers' forum; we are all discussing this in the wrong place. I've started a new thread here.

[ladhrann]

As a matter of interest, should stripes over the shoulder to the sleevehead match on a shirt? I know they're expected to match at the yoke, but are there other signs of attention to detail that a punter should look for in a well-made shirt?

[napoli]

Increasing the waist suppression in the side seam is not the same at all as having darts in the back. Darts are in the right place for anatomy. Too much waist suppression in the side seam will create drags. A trick would be to move the side seam a little backward when increasing waist suppression.


I find the idea of hollowing the seam between front and yoke very good. But it is not the same as the neck dart.
Neck dart is OK on solids, but it will be a mess on stripes. On the old pattern you showed, it is hidden in the bib's seam. Maybe on a modern shirt, it could be hidden in the button placket.

Nice trick that!

I have been reading the forum about if a slim shirt can be obtained without adding the back darts, that I don´t like them and would like to avoid on further striped ones , but all my rtw slim shirts do have it already . I am reading 3 post that continued this one.

I voted positive to that Nishijin´s post.

I love the arricio ( neapolitan waterfall shoulder wrinkles ) the author did on his shirt. I cutted a wider part on my pattern to add that, my today´s work.

[napoli]

As a matter of interest, should stripes over the shoulder to the sleevehead match on a shirt? I know they're expected to match at the yoke, but are there other signs of attention to detail that a punter should look for in a well-made shirt?

Only on Kiton shirts or similar top quality and price ones do match, I have tons of shirts and expend a full day comparing their details.

I have seen +300 euros priced ones of other fashion forward brands where a single piece do not match, sadly.

[Nishijin]

Napoli, on this forum, we discuss mainly bespoke work. We don't care that much what is done by fashion forward expensive brands. Maybe 300€ brands don't match, but the bespoke shirtmakers I know do try to match at the top of the sleeve, and they are less expensive than that.

You need to change your frame of reference, and study the work of bespoke masters, not fashion brands. Some brands still have high expectations about quality, but sadly a lot of them are just making money, abusing uneducated customers.

How much is a Kiton shirt ? The very best shirts I've seen to this day are 280€, and they are an incredible work of art. And I've seen a few shirts from very good masters.

[napoli]

Napoli, on this forum, we discuss mainly bespoke work. We don't care that much what is done by fashion forward expensive brands. Maybe 300€ brands don't match, but the bespoke shirtmakers I know do try to match at the top of the sleeve, and they are less expensive than that.

You need to change your frame of reference, and study the work of bespoke masters, not fashion brands. Some brands still have high expectations about quality, but sadly a lot of them are just making money, abusing uneducated customers.

How much is a Kiton shirt ? The very best shirts I've seen to this day are 280€, and they are an incredible work of art. And I've seen a few shirts from very good masters.

Sure, I agree with you, that is why I wrote fashion forward brands as an euphemish to what I normal call , "Milan based abusers who charge a lot for carton like fabrics" , like those famous " designers " we all know and I won´t name.

On my Circle , saying Kiton is naming the God of the higher step on sartorialism, as they are always one step beyond the competence. But yes, you are right as the readers might be from another circle so I will avoid names.

A Kiton rtw shirt with 12 passages at hand as the roll on the bottom like a pocketsquare, sides, buttonholes, collar, long seams on the sleeve, etc goes from 250 to 500 euros depending the fabric, usually are priced around 300 euros, Mtm is like 20% more of those prices. Fabrics are simply the best of the best that I have seen around from 170s to 200s and up ( I don´t work for Kiton haha )

It seems that best shirtmakers of London who dress a famous secret agent do everything by machine and prices are more or less same right? I have never handled one in person.

Other fashion forward brands as you mention do charge more or less same prices for a machine made shirt with run on the mill fabrics but yes, a big logo on the chest that multiplies the value for XXXX

. It seems that on USA are priced around the 999 Dollars, but again I will refuse giving my personal opinion about this as you did very well.

[Nishijin]

I know nothing about neapolitan shirtmakers. But I've heard about someone named Anna Matuozo who seems to make very, very good shirts, with all the handsewing you like. Her bespoke shirts starts at 380€.

As far as I know, Kiton is a pretty good cloth maker, and their standard of quality is very good. But they certainly aren't the God of Higher Step. The least that could be said is that the Pantheon of High Quality makers in the world is quite crowded...
Oh, and hand-sewing is definitely not the ultimate proof of quality. It is just an option amongst others.

[napoli]

I know nothing about neapolitan shirtmakers. But I've heard about someone named Anna Matuozo who seems to make very, very good shirts, with all the handsewing you like. Her bespoke shirts starts at 380€.

As far as I know, Kiton is a pretty good cloth maker, and their standard of quality is very good. But they certainly aren't the God of Higher Step. The least that could be said is that the Pantheon of High Quality makers in the world is quite crowded...
Oh, and hand-sewing is definitely not the ultimate proof of quality. It is just an option amongst others.

Yes Anna, she has rised her prices right now as you pointed out. I took some details borrowed from her.

[ladhrann]

Thanks for the reply. The remarks about 'brands' and the amount of work (or lack of it) that goes into their items are salutary lessons that hopefully those bewitched by a name made in China etc. will eventually see past. Matched at the yoke and sleeves, anything else I should look out for? I operate normally as someone who gets clotha nd brings it to a craftsman, for various reasons i.e. bargains, luck, choice etc. so cloth aside, what are the other signs of a truly well-made shirt?

[Nishijin]

Ladhrann,

the first and most important sign of quality in a bespoke shirt is fit, fit and fit. Then, it should be made strongly but with delicate details. "Pattern matching" is the new frenzy now, since they talk mainly about it on internet (not knowing enough to discuss anything else, I presume), but a few years ago customers didn't care for it. It is not difficult to do, just takes a little time and eats more fabric (thus, is more expensive).

I've seen pictures a few day ago of the work of a bespoke shirtmaker in Japan. He did not try patternmatching at the shoulder, nor did he made the sleeve seam shifted from the body seam (on other Internet frenzy, even if they don't understand why it's done). And I'm pretty sure his collars are fused (the third Internet proof of a quality making). And everything is machine made (in his small workshop), no hand topstitching.

But at the end, the shirt looked very nice and well made, and he charges only 120€. At this price, he just doesn't have time to play with fabric pattern.


Some people are ready to pay three time that price for a RTW shirt with pattern matching, hand sewing, shifted seams and non-fused collar that they don't know how to iron properly. And being RTW, the shirt don't fit. That is their choice, I just don't care. But in my eye, a garment that doesn't fit looks like one is wearing someone else's. I just don't see the hand made buttonholes when I'm 3 meters away. But I see it doesn't fit.

Now, you need to ask yourself what is your priority in quality.

Once again, 10 years ago, pattern matching wasn't expected from the best shirtmakers in the world (T&A, Lanvin...). I would not be surprised if Sulka didn't made special effort for it.

[Der Zuschneider]

That's right fitting is priority. Pattern matching is made by tailors who compensate bad pattern making.

[Nishijin]

That's right fitting is priority. Pattern matching is made by tailors who compensate bad pattern making.

Hey, from what I've seen, aren't you very big on pattern matching youself ? What does that mean about your pattern making ?

[ladhrann]

Ladhrann,

the first and most important sign of quality in a bespoke shirt is fit, fit and fit. Then, it should be made strongly but with delicate details. "Pattern matching" is the new frenzy now, since they talk mainly about it on internet (not knowing enough to discuss anything else, I presume), but a few years ago customers didn't care for it. It is not difficult to do, just takes a little time and eats more fabric (thus, is more expensive).

I've seen pictures a few day ago of the work of a bespoke shirtmaker in Japan. He did not try patternmatching at the shoulder, nor did he made the sleeve seam shifted from the body seam (on other Internet frenzy, even if they don't understand why it's done). And I'm pretty sure his collars are fused (the third Internet proof of a quality making). And everything is machine made (in his small workshop), no hand topstitching.

But at the end, the shirt looked very nice and well made, and he charges only 120€. At this price, he just doesn't have time to play with fabric pattern.


Some people are ready to pay three time that price for a RTW shirt with pattern matching, hand sewing, shifted seams and non-fused collar that they don't know how to iron properly. And being RTW, the shirt don't fit. That is their choice, I just don't care. But in my eye, a garment that doesn't fit looks like one is wearing someone else's. I just don't see the hand made buttonholes when I'm 3 meters away. But I see it doesn't fit.

Now, you need to ask yourself what is your priority in quality.

Once again, 10 years ago, pattern matching wasn't expected from the best shirtmakers in the world (T&A, Lanvin...). I would not be surprised if Sulka didn't made special effort for it.

Thanks once again for all the informative replies. Like the shirtmaker you mention in Japan, and like the old mantra in real estate 'location, location, location', 'fit, fit and fit' is what tailoring is about. I have brought lengths of cloth including Irish linen and Italian mother-of-pearl buttons to a made-to-measure factory here in Ireland as an experiment. I'm not too pushed about handwork but as you say strongly made but with delicate features. One thing I will say though is that I do notice fused collars when I wear them, and as a result try to avoid them. This of course could be due to the shirt itself being poorly fitted or otherwise sub-par. One thing I like is that they put 8 buttonholes on the front of the shirt, it doesn't seem like much, but if you don't wear an undershirt e.g. in hot weather etc. its very unsightly to have any open space if there's pulls or drags across the garment.

[Nishijin]

MTM shirt is not a bad product, but it is far from being a real bespoke shirt.

A friend of mine is working with an MTM factory to help them improve their product. It proves very difficult to make them evolve, their first answer is that "this is not how shirts are done" and "we can't make this". Sleeveheads are made very differently, for example. And the lines are different, which is important because the lines make the look and the confort.

But if you can't afford any better (which I perfectly understand), then you should see an improvement with MTM. At least, I did.

Fused collars : the feel is certainly different from non-fused ones.

[ladhrann]

MTM shirt is not a bad product, but it is far from being a real bespoke shirt.

A friend of mine is working with an MTM factory to help them improve their product. It proves very difficult to make them evolve, their first answer is that "this is not how shirts are done" and "we can't make this". Sleeveheads are made very differently, for example. And the lines are different, which is important because the lines make the look and the confort.

But if you can't afford any better (which I perfectly understand), then you should see an improvement with MTM. At least, I did.

Fused collars : the feel is certainly different from non-fused ones.

Nishijn,

Thanks for the help on the subject. Its so hard to separate fact from fiction when it comes to bespoke vs. MTM especially in shirts that I'm trying to work up to it. Also one of my passions is supporting local businesses, I was able to find a local one in driving distance making shirts in Ireland whereas the nearest ''genuine'' bespoke is over the Irish sea and in London.

So the plan is to see what the improvement is with the MTM shirt, I'll compare it to RTW and then think about getting bespoke at the next stage.

For the actual visit to the MTM factory it was quite interesting, we met the cutter and got to try on shirts in their different standard blocks or patterns, and also got to see the automatic pattern printing machine that sends stuff over from London. We also got to see the shop floor and all the bolts of cloth. There was also an odd scene where I produced a large bag of mother-of-pearl buttons and started to count them out for sleeves and shirt fronts!

[greger]

Another way to find a tailor is to ask cloth merchants if there are any near where you live. Even old retired one might still be making shirts or other clothes for extra money or fight boredom, so wouldn't be listed in the phone book.