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#1 Nishijin

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 01:38 AM

Carpu has started a very good thread about how the future of tailoring used to be seen in movies.

http://www.cutterand...?showtopic=2159

I'd like to discuss this from a slightly different point of view : where do we, professionnals and customers, do we think the trade might be going ?

Here are a few ideas to start...

1/ what are today's sport garments ?
It has be said frequently, with proof and examples, that formal garment of a time are posterity from earlier sport garments. The main sports for this were equestrian activities and nautism. Those two fields gave us dress coats, lounge coats and reefer.

Today's sport garments are nearly always made from knits. I presume this is because knits are much more confortable for this, and the knit industry has improved a lot over the XXth century. Sad thing (for us tailors) is that knits are poorly suited to tailoring.
There are still many sport garments made from warp&weft fabric, but those are unstructured, either loose or stretch, and more akin to the art of shirtmaking than to tailoring.

Tailors are still sometimes commissioned for sport garments, such as hunting coats for example. But I see those as part of today's fascination and nostalgy for tradition and old styles. An example is the Norfolk jacket, quite fascionable these days, but created more than a century ago. Not really new, then...


2/ What about army and navy ?

Military men have left us many garments and fashion accessories. A few examples : the trench coat, the reefer jacket / pea coat, the greatcoat, the wellington boots, many styles of glasses frames, the saharian jacket, chino trousers, desert boots...

So maybe we could take ideas from military outfits. Not that promising, though. I see 2 kinds of garments there today : traditionnal, formal ones, and jumpsuits/combat dress / working dress.

The fashion of "wlaking out dress" has died, military personnal usually wearing civilian cloth while off-duty.

Even parade dress is more and more changed to just wear combat camouflage dress, with medals and a few ceremonial accessories.

Not many ideas for tailoring here either, I'm afraid...



3/ Will we have a "retro-future" ?
No, I'm not thinking steam-punk... :Big Grin:

From the XIXth century to the last decades of the XXth, there was a general idea that "progress" was a good thing, and that was leading society.
Since maybe 2 decades (though the idea is much older that that, of course), the very concept of linear progress is loosing its seduction. People believe less and lesser that innovation is always for the better. There are doubts about the industry, the nuclear energy, petrol-based materials are no longer seen as better than "natural" ones (whatever "natural" really mean, when we think about it...).

Menswear fashion has been quite conservative for a century now. Maybe the future will become even more nostalgic than out past used to be. Maybe the future of tailoring really does lye in its past.


But I'm really convinced that the past never happens again. Even if our future is inpired byt the past, we will make things different. If only because we don't have the cloths, tools and manpower of the past.


How do you see the future of tailoring ? Should we tailors find ways to use more knits and stretch ? Should we prepare ourselves to make much less structured garments, and merge our craft with shirtmakers ?

How can we attract customers to order sports and informal garments from us, and not only business suits and formal outfits ? How can we market much more expensive garments, but with a better fit, when today's sport outfits are so cheap because of mass production ?
http://www.paulgrassart.com

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#2 Lewis Davies

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 02:04 AM

progressive / Creative tailoring is what i was taught

#3 Nishijin

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 02:07 AM

A few pictures...


Here, a brief history of military uniforms (in France) :
1870-1914 :
Posted Image

1915 :
Posted Image


1930 : same uniform as in 1915, but in khaki instead of "bleu horizon"

2000 : FELIN uniform
Posted Image


2000 : US Army Combat Uniform
Posted Image



Not that far ago, uniform of the Gendarmerie (a branch of French military forces) used to be this :
Posted Image

Though this still can be seen in formal events, here is everyday's uniform :
Posted Image
Posted Image

Those new uniforms are "more modern" and "more confortable".
http://www.paulgrassart.com

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#4 Nishijin

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 02:14 AM

progressive / Creative tailoring is what i was taught



I was taught creative tailoring too... But what I see in reality is creation limited to yet another variation of the same old lounge coat.

Is creative tailoring cutting just another lounge, but with a different collar ?

Is there a way to do something really new ?

What can we do so that tomorrow's formal outfit would not be jeans/chinos and polo shirt ? What is the essence of tailoring ? Are we still tailors if we make uncanvased, unstructured garments cut in a knit ? Can a tailor make sweat pants ?
http://www.paulgrassart.com

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
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#5 Nishijin

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 02:17 AM

This sport coat from Cifonelli's was acclaimed as being creative. And I do think it is.
Posted Image

But, I cannot but think it is yet another lounge coat...
http://www.paulgrassart.com

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#6 Schneidergott

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 03:26 AM

The only environment left for suits are "serious" professions.
Whenever possible, people tend to dress much more casual. So this is Utopia!



Apart from that: What sort of colours do people wear today? On the job it's mostly shades of grey or blue, or even black.
But maybe the old rules like "no brown in town" will loosen up.
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http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#7 carpu65

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 04:07 AM

What about army and navy ?


In Italy we have still tailored uniforms for duty.
http://www.sartoriam...re.com/home.php
http://www.sartoriae..._id=8&Itemid=21

Police and Carabinieri wear tunic with open collar and tie in the streets.

http://www.tordiquin...arabinieri3.jpg

I think that Italian society is very conservative.

Will we have a "retro-future" ?
No, I'm not thinking steam-punk... :Big Grin:
Menswear fashion has been quite conservative for a century now. Maybe the future will become even more nostalgic than out past used to be. Maybe the future of tailoring really does lye in its past.


No doubt.
Men bespoke is in "back to the future" trend by 1968 circa.
Before we had important changes: from the drape to the clean silhouette of 50s and 60s was the last.
By 68-69 tailors and customers back to see to 30s and 40s, so the bespoke suit of tomorrow in 70s,80s,90s,2000s was...a 30s suit.
Now seems that the trend moved to early 60s.
I don't think that bespoke world can invent a suit radically new,like the UFO neruh coats.

How do you see the future of tailoring ?



I think that bespoke and lounge suit will stay for more a generation or two.
A 1930 guy would remain schocked to see a modern bespoke suit,because is incredibly similar to a suit of his times.
So i think that is probable that in 2040,for some occasions,we have lounge suit don't much different by today.
Maybe the "new classic" could see to "mad men" and Connery-Bond world,and not to Clark Gable and Duke of Windsor.
Who know?

#8 carpu65

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 04:12 AM

This sport coat from Cifonelli's was acclaimed as being creative. And I do think it is.
Posted Image

But, I cannot but think it is yet another lounge coat...


The problem is also the cost of better bespoke.

Few men,also very rich spend lot of money for experimental coats.
If i go to Cifonelli,in Rome or Paris,i want a double breasted or a three pieces lounge suit,not a sartorial extravaganza.
So we stay in timeless fashion temporal loop.

#9 Schneidergott

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 04:28 AM

Right now the RTW (suit) industry takes great efforts to provide garments that have a better fit (depending on what their definition of "good fit" is).
Right now many people avoid (if possible) wearing a suit simply because they feel uncomfortable in it.
I'm not too optimistic about the future results, because the "future" suits will be based on actual, already ill fitting suits, just with adapted measurements.
So for now, the main task isn't to invent something radically new, but to provide garments that actually fit.
For bespoke tailors good fit is less a challenge (or at least should be), but theirs is to convince a customer that substance is more important than brand image.

And FTR: That Cifonelli is a very nicely styled and made hunting coat.

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#10 Nishijin

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 05:30 AM

I find it sadly funny to see that even professional tailors reduce tailoring to "suits".

Is there no future for tailors outside of suits ? There used to be a time when the tailor was the one and unique provider for the whole wardrobe of a gentleman... Today, we think suit, and when we want to go out of the track, a slight effort allows us to remember overcoats.
http://www.paulgrassart.com

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Mark Twain

#11 I.Brackley

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 08:12 AM

2/ What about army and navy ?

Military men have left us many garments and fashion accessories. A few examples : the trench coat, the reefer jacket / pea coat, the greatcoat, the wellington boots, many styles of glasses frames, the saharian jacket, chino trousers, desert boots...

So maybe we could take ideas from military outfits. Not that promising, though. I see 2 kinds of garments there today : traditionnal, formal ones, and jumpsuits/combat dress / working dress.


This is perhaps what makes the study of uniform particularly interesting. Militaries and para-mlitary organisations, Gendarmerie, rozzers, postmen, etc tend to have a janus face to their wardrobes. In terms of day-to-day functional and function-specific garments they tend to be very keen on new cuts, cloths, patterns in the name of practicality and utility (and thus sometimes end up looking like mail courriers).
However the conservative nature of the cuture within these organisations tends to result in the "dress" or cerimonial stuff getting the fossilisation treatment. A lot of fundamental things like cuts, materials and details remain only slightly modified from three-quarters of a century ago in many instances. This will vary from case to case naturally but I belive it to be the over-arching trend such as for rear-echelon higher ups (generals & co.) to dress as closely to front-line troops as possible.

As for military influence on "civvy street"there is an overlooked style of casual lounge closely related to the safari shirt/coat, that being the casual tunic-jacket. In various weights and at it's best it is essentially a lounge with a rotating cast of martial details (brassy buttons, shoulder boards, many large external pockets, etc). R2W examples of these casual coats abound. The 'military look' to men's casual jackets comes in and out of fashion about every 5 or so years. A cycle of fashion so rapid they never really go out of style.


Lastly, I would say that I find some comfort (at last) in the lounge just because it is a narrow medium. In its simplicity it allows for the subtlest variations to have the most impact on the overall impression. It is an artistic convention of sorts and convention does not limit the true artist but instead provides his creativity with guidance and focus into a common language of style.

Edited by I.Brackley, 07 April 2011 - 11:06 AM.

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#12 Sator

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 10:38 AM

Ties are going out of fashion. I even saw Rupert Murdoch give an interview wearing a lounge suit but "sans cravatte". Hardy Amies seemed to have been ahead of his time in anticipating this issue. For example here is something that is designed to look good without a tie:

Posted Image

Notice the Gillie collar. The flap pocket is a sporting touch and means you don't need a pochette in there. I've also notice that a lot of waterproof sporting jackets/parkas made of Gore-Tex have zips on the pockets. If you have near vertical angled jetted pockets and added zips, it would be a nice modern sporting touch. In fact, just adding zippers to all pockets is a nice modern sporting touch.

Also high stand-up collars with a hood would look great like this:

Posted Image

You can turn it into a smarter looking bespoke tailored style quite easily. I would probably add a tab to close off the top of the stand-up collar. I would make the coat much more fitted as well. Options for sleeves would include Raglan sleeves and kimono sleeves.

Please keep in mind that the lounge coat, morning coat and dress coat were all sports coats for lounging and horse riding that once were no more formal than a Gore-Tex Parka.

#13 Sator

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 10:47 AM

Here is an idea from Kurt Czujewicz from a 1960s DSHW. I will translate the full draft one day.

Posted Image

Posted Image

I think it is ideal for someone who finds sports coats in a lounge jacket style have become almost as formal a garment as a frock coat. If there is pressure to dress casually in a business environment, why not make someone a coat like this? Throw in a sporting styled waistcoat with bellows pockets (to put in your bullets originally, but good for storing junk). I would personally also be tempted to make it a more fitted garment.

You can throw your arms up in disgust and scream that he should be wearing formal morning dress to work, but I don't think you are going to turn back the clock.

#14 Sator

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 10:54 AM

Here is another idea from the 1930s:

Posted Image

I think that the biggest problem is that the lapels look too formal for modern eyes. I think a Gillie collar would be better. Or else add other sporting features such as zippers on the pockets to them more like this:

Posted Image

I like the vertical pocket at the chest - except the position should be closer to the sleeve. I think that making it as a jetted and zippered pocket should not be too hard.

#15 Sator

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:11 AM

As for military influence on "civvy street"there is an overlooked style of casual lounge closely related to the safari shirt/coat, that being the casual tunic-jacket. In various weights and at it's best it is essentially a lounge with a rotating cast of martial details (brassy buttons, shoulder boards, many large external pockets, etc). R2W examples of these casual coats abound. The 'military look' to men's casual jackets comes in and out of fashion about every 5 or so years. A cycle of fashion so rapid they never really go out of style.


Yes, bring back the safari jacket:

http://www.cutterand...p?showtopic=950

Posted Image

You can also add these types of pockets to a lounge styled jacket to make it look sportier and more rough-military.

I also love the collar style!

#16 Sator

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:30 AM

The next kimono jacket comes from a ladies' Rundschau draft:

Posted ImagePosted Image

I can easily adapt that draft into a men's sport jacket similar to the Amies jacket above with the Gillie/Prussian collar. Safari jacket style pockets, or else zippered and jetted pockets would be good modern sporting details. I would not keep that ladies' style of side pocket. Obviously, the coat would be longer.

#17 I.Brackley

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:33 AM

You can throw your arms up in disgust and scream that he should be wearing formal morning dress to work, but I don't think you are going to turn back the clock.


Now Sator, why would I do anything of the sort?
Oh I might wish to suggest that one could incorporate themes or take cues from the classic stroller, but I think the gentleman looks quite comfortable as he is and certainly lightyears ahead of the balance of men out there today in terms of smart and casually elegant.

If there is pressure to dress casually in a business environment, why not make someone a coat like this? Throw in a sporting styled waistcoat with bellows pockets (to put in your bullets originally, but good for storing junk).


Looking at the hooded jacket and the current, robe-like "mandarin" style collar on US battledress, I can see the stand collar creeping back in a way.

Posted Image

Don't know if I'd ever find peace with the hood. I just despise hoods but that's a personal hang-up.
It's a good example this yellow hooded thing, I can really see smething like it done up in weighty tweed. Carefuly now, go too far down that path for before long it starts to look like an 1890's bicycle patrol-style jacket......with a hoodie!

But in all seriousness I could it being a handsome garment and could likewise see such a thing being greatly appreciated by the "casual cyclist": the guy on the opposite end of the bike spectrum from Lance Armstrong and spandex, the guy who wonders about how to keep chain grease and puddles off his trousers.
"The possibilities that exist in the portrayal of personality constitute the strongest, and in fact the only unanswerable argument for the supremacy of Custom Tailoring"

-F.T. Croonborg, c. 1917

#18 carpu65

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:53 AM

Very funny
In military uniforms when stand up collar was replaced by open collar with shirt and tie this was considered a great improvement.
Was said that stand up collar tunic were many much uncomfortable then open collar tunic.
And now...this is the future?

Posted Image

Edited by carpu65, 07 April 2011 - 12:07 PM.





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