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#19 I.Brackley

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 01:22 PM

Was said that stand up collar tunic were many much uncomfortable then open collar tunic.
And now...this is the future?


I think the current "mandarin" collar is a rather different animal, (I'll go as far as to say more primitive one in cutting terms)than the classic "Prussian" stand collar of old. The resemblace in this case is mostly passing.
Where the Prussian collar proper is highly worked into shape with the iron and very structured, this mandarin collar has very little (almost no) real shape to it, being practically a flat rectangular band with a strip of velcro on it encouraging a vaugness of shape and fit. Not so much an issue in something to be worn under kevlar, but more so if you're aiming for elegance, something the old style Prussian collar often did have going for it.
I think the US army was right to dub their new collar "mandarin" as it would seem to take its structural ques from tradional Eastern robe-like dress details.

It should be said that a more tailor-made "Prussian" collar need not be unfomfortable at all provided it is made in harmony with the client's psoture (how the head is held in particular) and leave just a touch of gap, preferrably right at the CF while the edges still meet. It is a great place to showcase precision tailoring.
"The possibilities that exist in the portrayal of personality constitute the strongest, and in fact the only unanswerable argument for the supremacy of Custom Tailoring"

-F.T. Croonborg, c. 1917

#20 carpu65

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 08:28 PM

The collar of white duck (now polyester)summer uniform of Royal Navy and US Navy is mandarine collar?
I ask because time ago was a discussion about the summer uniforms of City Police,if more comfortable the old white duck cotton uniform with low stand up collar or the new white duck cotton uniform with open collar,shirt and tie.

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#21 Sator

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 10:44 PM

This isn't a stiff military collar - it is soft:

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If you've ever worn a Gore-Tex jacket with a collar like that, you won't find it stiff or uncomfortable at all.

Here is another example of this sort of collar on a ladies' kimono styled overcoat:

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#22 Sator

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:53 PM

Another related style to the safari jacket is the patrol jacket:

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Note the way it has body coat style back panels. If the stand up military collar is a bit too stiff and Nehru like then it can be replaced by the type of collar on Roger Moore's safari jacket.

There were many variations of the patrol jacket, some of which took a full belt:

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#23 Sator

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:01 AM

It is interesting that Moore's safari has lapels reminiscent of Ulster lapels. Which raises the possibility of a double breasted version of a patrol jacket with a two-way collar in either a choice of Ulster or Prussian collar:

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Worn open, it would look like this:

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Worn closed, it would be like this:

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The overall impression of a DB patrol jacket styled as an undercoat would be something more like this (from Hardy Amies):

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#24 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:26 AM

The only environment left for suits are "serious" professions.
Whenever possible, people tend to dress much more casual. So this is Utopia!



Apart from that: What sort of colours do people wear today? On the job it's mostly shades of grey or blue, or even black.
But maybe the old rules like "no brown in town" will loosen up.



Very appropriate!

#25 Sator

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:50 AM

The only environment left for suits are "serious" professions.


Most lawyers only wear a suit when they are going to appear in court or for an important client meeting. Soon the only "serious professionals" to wear a lounge suit will be undertakers.

#26 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 01:14 AM

You have come up with an interesting thread Nish!

I think at some time in the past designers have tried to come up with new ideas. I can remember foam backed car coats (they were designed very short in length to enable you to sit comfortable in your car). The fabric would come on rolls with a thin layer of foam on the back, it was murder to cut in bulk, the fabric moved with a life of its own.
I also remember the permanently pressed suits were the fabric was treated with a chemical. When the suit was finished and pressed it was baked in an oven so as to retain the shape.
It was advertised on TV showing a man in a swimming pool complete with suit, upon climbing out, the suit shed the water and retained the shape. You even have paper garments now.

( I know Sator does not like the teddy boy style of suit, but the type worn by 'Shawaddy waddy' were greatly exaggerated by the media and the films of the day. Most lads were happy with a drape coat with velvet collars and maybe velvet cuffs. It was only the few odd balls who went over the top in style) The majority of men and teenagers were content with a nice well cut and tailored suit.

There was move in the sixties and seventies during the pop era to move away and try something different and that's when the tailoring trade started to decline.

If you go back to the Victorian era every trade and profession had its own style and function. There was a class in the way people wore clothes.

Today you cannot tell a postman from railway porter or a policeman from a traffic warder. Women are dressing like men and men are dressing like women. The designers today are controlled by the media and are producing tripe, thinking thatís what people want or telling them that's what you should have. You only have to look at some of the posts on C&T to see that.

I know I am a cynic, but at my age I don't care.

#27 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 01:20 AM

I think the current "mandarin" collar is a rather different animal, (I'll go as far as to say more primitive one in cutting terms)than the classic "Prussian" stand collar of old. The resemblace in this case is mostly passing.
Where the Prussian collar proper is highly worked into shape with the iron and very structured, this mandarin collar has very little (almost no) real shape to it, being practically a flat rectangular band with a strip of velcro on it encouraging a vaugness of shape and fit. Not so much an issue in something to be worn under kevlar, but more so if you're aiming for elegance, something the old style Prussian collar often did have going for it.
I think the US army was right to dub their new collar "mandarin" as it would seem to take its structural ques from tradional Eastern robe-like dress details.

It should be said that a more tailor-made "Prussian" collar need not be unfomfortable at all provided it is made in harmony with the client's psoture (how the head is held in particular) and leave just a touch of gap, preferrably right at the CF while the edges still meet. It is a great place to showcase precision tailoring.



The Prussian collar was for greatcoats, the stand collar or mandarin collar was for the tunic.

#28 I.Brackley

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 02:03 AM

The collar of white duck (now polyester)summer uniform of Royal Navy and US Navy is mandarine collar?
I


Negative, in that case it is the old-style (19th-early 20th century) stand collar.
To illustrate the difference between the US army's soft, unshaped "mandarin" and the old style tailored, stand collar note the pic below which is the same style of garment as the previous pic I posted only with the "mandarin" collar worn flipped down for an open-necked, casual look.

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"The possibilities that exist in the portrayal of personality constitute the strongest, and in fact the only unanswerable argument for the supremacy of Custom Tailoring"

-F.T. Croonborg, c. 1917

#29 I.Brackley

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 02:04 AM

The Prussian collar was for greatcoats, the stand collar or mandarin collar was for the tunic.



Quite right. I stand corrected. The 1899 CPG makes the distinction

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"The possibilities that exist in the portrayal of personality constitute the strongest, and in fact the only unanswerable argument for the supremacy of Custom Tailoring"

-F.T. Croonborg, c. 1917

#30 Schneidergott

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 03:08 AM

A draft for a Buschjacke coming from "Allgemeine Schneiderzeitung":

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We live in a world of copy cats. As soon as something or someone is successful there will be copies of them in no time.
So if designer X comes up with an idea, designer Y is soon to copy that, and the big chain stores follow with an even cheaper version.

The majority of bespoke tailors still in existence do what they have always done, only a small number of tailors/ cutters dare to leave the path of tried and tested.
And if they do, they might get ridiculed by the more conservative ones.

Tailoring, at least here in Germany, stopped being interesting in the 80's. And many women's tailors/ dressmakers are stuck in that period. The elegance and innovation of the decades before is gone.

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#31 carpu65

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 11:30 AM

Another "suit of tomorrow"...the summer suit of tomorrow.
The shirt coat.

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#32 Sator

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:01 PM

We live in a world of copy cats. As soon as something or someone is successful there will be copies of them in no time.
So if designer X comes up with an idea, designer Y is soon to copy that, and the big chain stores follow with an even cheaper version.


I don't think it really matters much. Bespoke tailoring has something they can't copy: fit.

Even a safari jacket that is well fitted and cut will always look totally outstanding. This is why it's important not to waste too much time in "designing" garments. You need to keep the cut simple, rough, practical and sporty. Then you let the fit take care of the rest. If it looks too designed then it will just look precious, and too much like a pretentious catwalk costume. The above shirt suit looks like something really contrived that fashion designers have been trying to push for decades along with men in skirts (supposedly the visionary look of the future).

#33 Sator

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:07 PM

Another "suit of tomorrow"...the summer suit of tomorrow.
The shirt coat.

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BTW I think this also looks extremely retro now. Futurism as an aesthetic movement is extremely old now and dates from an era when they still wore frock coats. From Wikipedia:

Futurism was an artistic and social movement that originated in Italy in the early 20th century. It was largely an Italian phenomenon, though there were parallel movements in Russia, England and elsewhere. The Futurists practised in every medium of art, including painting, sculpture, ceramics, graphic design, industrial design, interior design, theatre, film, fashion, textiles, literature, music, architecture and even gastronomy.

The founder of Futurism and its most influential personality was the Italian writer Filippo Tommaso Marinetti. Marinetti launched the movement in his Futurist Manifesto, which he published for the first time on 5 February 1909 in La gazzetta dell'Emilia...


Marinetti:

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#34 carpu65

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:49 PM

Nothing is old like Marinetti,with his bowler hat and stiff high collar. :spiteful:

P.S.
The man in "shirt coat" is Count Giovanni Nuvoletti,a famous Italian dandy.
The pictures was take in 1968.

#35 I.Brackley

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 10:14 AM

Nothing is old like Marinetti,with his bowler hat and stiff high collar. :spiteful:


I recall an art history textbook of mine describing these as "futurist waistcoats". Basically a contemporary waistcoat of the day cut from a cloth whose quasi-tribal loudness is calculated to provoke. I wonder what colour(s) they were?

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Edited by I.Brackley, 10 April 2011 - 10:15 AM.

"The possibilities that exist in the portrayal of personality constitute the strongest, and in fact the only unanswerable argument for the supremacy of Custom Tailoring"

-F.T. Croonborg, c. 1917

#36 Sator

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 08:48 PM

It might seem that a modern lounge is almost unchanged from the Victorian or Edwardian era but take a look at this picture from 1938 showing factory workers going home:

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Today, no factory worker goes home in a three piece lounge. It is being slowly relegated to formal wear. Even in my own lifetime, it has gone from standard white collar work attire to something worn only worn in top corporate circles, or more formal meetings. The next step is that it will become ceremonial dress. If you wear it to work, people will wonder why you are dressed for a wedding. Children will ask if people really wore lounge suits and morning coats to work in the past.

I must say I am deeply saddened that Nishijin's thread is being made fun of with these bizarre pictures of strange Star Trek type of "futuristic" costume. I understand that it is my fault that I have all of these people who are interested in Eternal Style. However, I think that if we don't find a casual and sporty tailored style that is acceptable to a new generation, the Art of Tailoring is as good as dead. It has no future. It is imperative that a new sporting styles are found, not because it would be fun to design some weird novelty, but because it is a matter of survival. Perhaps some people want tailoring to die.

I repeat that theatrical costume has never become the source of new tailored styles. The features of new tailored garments that have become common in the past are:

1. Are only a set of variations on previous styles
2. Are casual, sporting or military wear
3. Suit the popular sporting or leisure activity of the day
4. Contain nothing excessively novel or unusual

There is every reason to think that the next generation of tailored garment should evolve from something equally rugged, rough and sporty.

Bizarre Star Trek costumes and other things that look like they come from the designer's catwalk simply won't gain acceptance:

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