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#37 Nishijin

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 09:36 PM

I was the one who put pictures of Star Trek, and it was not to make fun of them. Of course, the jumpsuit you just showed is not really convincing. But I really do think that some of their 2/3 pieces uniforms are a quite plausible, and could give ideas on how to cut something that is still tailored, but also a nice, modern, sportive garment. Not copying Sci-Fi uniforms, of course, but look at them with a more opened eye, and you will see a remembrance of the US "patriotic" suit of the WWII. I'd like to find time to cut something like this, but better (better sleeves, better balance, forgeting the 2-colours design...).

Of course, an easy way to "modernise" the lounge is to add zips and play with the pockets. But it will still be a lounge behind.

The problem is that the lounge is a simplification of the body coat, where an easier fit allows to have less seams. There are very little seams on a lounge : CF, CB, 2 side seams, everything else are darts. If we remove more seams, we will loose all shape. My love for kimono won't make me believe this is the garment of the future...



I. Brackley : I'll try to find my pictures, but the futuristic waistcoats were in bold colours, yellows, red, greens, black. Very very bold.
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#38 Sator

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 10:38 PM

You can have kimono sleeves and add darts at the waistline to get more shape there. Remember that neither body coats nor lounge-Chesterfield type coats had as many seams to work with in the beginning. So all garments go through this - they start as rough, casual sporting garments and then as they mature they acquire extra seams that make then more fitted.

I also understand the difficulty of the topic and the resistance or even ridicule that it will produce. I see it as being like the problem with fossil fuels. Some will say that our grandparents, our parents and for all of our lives, we too have burnt them so there cannot possibly be any harm from it, and we should continue this way for all eternity. Others foresee future problems if we do not get ready for a change of paradigm. If we are unprepared, we will get caught out. In the same way, some think that our grandparents wore lounge coats, our parents wore them and we too wear them and that therefore this represents Eternal Style. In reality we need to foresee a transition to a new age, even if this transition is very slow.

To put it another way, the lounge coat occupies a similar position today as the frock coat did in 1911:

Posted Image

At least Holding (writing in 1905) had something he could offer to cut for clients to replace the outgoing garment.

#39 carpu65

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 02:51 AM

The sad true is that the "transition" is begin in late 60s (i said 1967-68),and the final point is flip flop,shorts,loose T Shirt,and baseball hat.
No space for bespoke out of "classic",i have fear.

#40 I.Brackley

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 05:52 AM

The sad true is that the "transition" is begin in late 60s (i said 1967-68),and the final point is flip flop,shorts,loose T Shirt,and baseball hat.
No space for bespoke out of "classic",i have fear.


I was thinking yesterday about the notion of a "developement plateau", where something develops to the point that it solves all the problems it was originally created to deal with and can only be varied upon (and slightly at that), not truely improved without altogether throwing everything away and starting from scratch (what the Italian Futurists advocated, the mad, bloody #@!*s.....).
The dress of many men in the Gulf Arab world has only changed significantly in the past century by becomming more homogenized and regional variances fading. Considering this habit meets the needs of being suitble for the climat as well as conferring dignity on the wearer, there is just nothing to really be improved upon. Why fix what isn't broken? So long as there are hierarchies, a conept of formality and spaces carved out for them to exist there will be need for garments to complete the desired image of power held in reserve, prowess, elegance and grace.
There isn't a T-shirt or basebal hat yet made that can do that.
I don't think the lounge is broken yet.
Right now the culture of permanent adolesence symbolised by forever dressing in short pants and a ball cap like a child may well be due for a backlash, the tailored suit, long a symbol of adulthood, could well have a new lease on life as a signifyer of this backlash (should it ever come).
Another question is how much longer will it be practicable to cheaply mass produce disposability across the seas as we have been? Might a time come in our lifetimes where manufacturing of garments returns to the local level (beauty salons and similar services certainly have) and stuffs closer to that 1930's rough-wearing "carpet" fabric starts to sound like a good investment again?
"The possibilities that exist in the portrayal of personality constitute the strongest, and in fact the only unanswerable argument for the supremacy of Custom Tailoring"

-F.T. Croonborg, c. 1917

#41 Guyé

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 08:34 AM

I don't really see there is any problem neither. There will allways be a formal outfit. Maybe in 50 years it will not be a suit? Maybe it will be a different style of jacket and trousers? Maybe our contemporary sports jackets and trousers will evolve so they will become more dressy? Ok then we only need to learn to tailor them. I do think we can tailor a sports jacket right now. I have done that. Of course it is a whole new thing, it doesn't have canvasses (at least not like the ones in a lounge suit), the whole structure and style is different, but you can make it to suit a customer, and you can use tailoring techniques to give it a better fit. The same thing applies to trousers.
For me the point is not being able to tailor the future's formal clothes, but being able to sell them to our customers. And even that, I am prone to think that will do itself. Customers come to us to have the top of their wardrobe made, wich now are mainly suits. If one day they start to be, for example, sports jackets wich are becoming more dressy, customers will ask us for them also, there will always be need for exclusivity and perfect fit. It will just be the same thing, formal clothing, with a different face.
And maybe there will be more variety of styles so we will benefit from more creativity again.

#42 Guyé

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 08:55 AM

I don't even think we need to create something or imagine something. Styles are out there right now, some of them I think are really nice. Of course everyone is able to design a style and sell them to its customers (in fact we should), but I don't think we have to get obsessed about finding THE style. Things evolve on their own, it makes no sense trying to drive it where we want, it may be even contraproducent.
I also think that change is already happening. Still incipient, cause the lounge suit is still the extended form of formal wear, but there are lots of nice RTW jackets out there, waiting to be our inspiration to create our own styles and offer them, perfectioned fit, style and quality-wise, to our customers. They alredy wear them, let's introduce them to our customers as garments they can also have, nicer, with better fit, and more exclusivity, from us. Maybe the bussinessman who orders its suits to you would also order a special jacket to wear during the weekend when he meets his friends for a lunch, or whatever he does. There are lots of kinds of social meetings in wich you would'nt wear a suit, but you still want to look good and cause a good impression to others. And even there are lots of jobs wich don't require such a formal wear as a suit, but still you have to look good, and those jobs are well paid enough to allow for tailor-made clothes. I am thinking of designers, for example.

Edited by Guyé, 11 April 2011 - 09:02 AM.


#43 Sator

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 09:40 AM

I don't even think we need to create something or imagine something. Styles are out there right now, some of them I think are really nice... the lounge suit is still the extended form of formal wear, but there are lots of nice RTW jackets out there, waiting to be our inspiration to create our own styles and offer them, perfected fit, style and quality-wise, to our customers. They already wear them, let's introduce them to our customers as garments they can also have, nicer, with better fit, and more exclusivity, from us.

Maybe the businessman who orders his suits from you would also order a special jacket to wear during the weekend when he meets his friends for a lunch, or whatever he does. There are lots of kinds of social meetings in which you wouldn't wear a suit, but you still want to look good and cause a good impression to others. And even there are lots of jobs which don't require such a formal wear as a suit...


¡Exactamente!

We just have to start of a culture of clients ordering modern sports coats from tailors. Rundschau has lots of contemporary sports styles in it and often include patterns for them.

It's true that styles don't really matter that much. If you get the fit right, it will always look superlative. I think that you can also add canvassing to these modern sports coats along with extra seams to get more waist suppression and shape.

#44 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 08:36 PM

Call me old fashioned, but I think you may be looking in the wrong direction! Maybe its not the jacket style that needs changing, maybe its the practical use of the jacket! How about a change in the pockets to meet todays technology? everone is being brainwashed to buy digital cameras, mobile phones,Kindle ebooks and how about a pocket for your credit cards. Come on you youngsters, lets see some ideas.

P.S. You can have the CPG guide on your Kindle!

Edited by MANSIE WAUCH, 11 April 2011 - 08:38 PM.


#45 Qirrel

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 08:49 PM

Call me old fashioned, but I think you may be looking in the wrong direction! Maybe its not the jacket style that needs changing, maybe its the practical use of the jacket! How about a change in the pockets to meet todays technology? everone is being brainwashed to buy digital cameras, mobile phones,Kindle ebooks and how about a pocket for your credit cards. Come on you youngsters, lets see some ideas.

P.S. You can have the CPG guide on your Kindle!


Great pockets? http://archive.perha...a/greatpockets/

#46 Sator

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 09:38 PM

Call me old fashioned, but I think you may be looking in the wrong direction!


Aux contraire you are being ultra modern! Just look at the quote from Holding in 1905 instructing us about the need to stay "alive and up-to-date". If you look at Hardie Amies, he too foresaw the need for a new generation of sportwear like the dress coat for riding in its day. If you look at the 1963 Czujewicz draft for the jacket with stand collar he too saw the need to remain fashionable. All of these men have now passed on. This concept of Eternal Style or Permanent Style, on the other hand, is something extremely new in fashion.

Of course, lounge coat fashions will still continue to evolve for some time, even as it is increasingly relegated to formal and ceremonial dress. It is not for nothing that the British Royal Family are seen out in public wearing lounge coats in the manner that royalty a hundred years ago wore frock coats. The lounge coat is close to becoming formal morning dress. The older and more traditional a garment becomes, the less tinkering with its style becomes tolerated. Imagine putting zippers or other fancy modern pockets on dress coats or morning coats to make them look fashionable.

#47 carpu65

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 02:09 AM

We just have to start of a culture of clients ordering modern sports coats from tailors.


What about hacking coat for "coat of tomorrow"?

Posted Image

Is a good idea;came from sports and have fantastic shape and...
:Whistle:
Ok,ok i admit,i have tried. :spiteful:
The truth is that im a damned 60s nostalgic.

Posted Image

#48 carpu65

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 03:57 AM

Seriously,
The problem about "modern tailoring" is very simple for me.
Is the huge cost of a good bespoke and the few tailors remained.
If customer,also if wealthy,go to Anderson & Sheppard or Henry Poole,don't pay a lot of money for a innovative experiment,but for a classic lounge suit.
A man in another blog time ago said that "Bespoke suit are investment; i invest on a suit that i can wear also ten year from now ".
Considers also that who go to Saville Row or Rubinacci or Caraceni is interested in classic lounge suit,not in technical jackets.
Untill 60s the situation was different.
Tailors were many,and the cost of bespoke reasonable and affordable.
So customers and tailor could experiment.
In 60s in my city,Messina was a young (in that time was in his 30s),good tailor.
He cut for young customers suit in peacock,swinging London style.
Was very popular (now is passed away)and innovative with patterns and colours (if you know it,in Blades of London style).
But the bill for customers was reasonable.
Now this is impossible,so forget "modern tailoring"; the suit of tomorrow (when it came) not will "bespoke".

#49 Nishijin

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 09:10 AM

I've seen today a suit and an overcoat made from a tailor in Paris who charges something like 300€ for a coat. Bespoke cut (and believe me, it was not an MTM one, this customer asks for very specific things that no MTM program I know of can do, and the coat was reasonnably well cut), not very well made (canvased, but badly canvased).

As this customer wants things that he can't have of the rack nor in MTM, but can't afford top class bespoke, he likes his tailor. And he likes to experiment, and wear quite unusual garments.

I believe this kind of work would have been usual in the past. Not everybody went to the better tailors, there were many much less expensive.

I was surprised to discover that it is possible to find people in Paris for this kind of work (and this price range).

Sadly, those tailors are very hard to find, must be very few. I don't understand how they can make for this little money, even with the many shortcuts that were taken, I can't understand the price. They must work a lot and earn very little, which is unfair because they are worth a decent pay.
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#50 Sator

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 11:15 AM

I think that a lot of tailors are just lazy. They are happy just to make lounge coats and trousers all the time as though they were a factory.

Ultimately, it is to the detriment of the trade, because there are many situations in which it is becoming increasingly difficult to wear lounge suits without it raising eyebrows - especially in casual, leisure situations.

Still, there is nothing wrong with the modern equivalent of the frock coat. It has some life in it yet, and you should enjoy while it lasts.

#51 Sator

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 11:51 AM

More stylish and wearable modern sports coats (and I really do mean sports coats) from DSHW November, 1965:

Posted Image

Posted Image

As time allows the drafts for many of these coats will be presented in The Coatmaker's Forum. So please keep an eye out.

#52 Sator

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 11:54 AM

This is the fashion illustration that comes with the draft by Hans Mayer for a sports suit:

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It comes from DSHW June 1965. Again a translation of the full draft will eventually follow.

#53 Sator

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 12:13 PM

More sports coats from DSHW August 1963.

On the first one note the collarless box coat worn with a cravatte or scarf to the bottom left. If you added a full belt, you could make it a bit more waisted. Interesting too is the lounge jacket on the bottom right - I don't see the mod era nostalgics wear having their coats made up in the "high button-two" configuration with flapped chest pocket. I also like the short and sporty raglan with some decorative tram tracking type of feature.

Posted Image

The most noteworthy sports jacket here is the one at bottom left with Raglan sleeves and squared fronts to button-three. The overcoat at the top is a typical '60s cut - short with storm flaps on both shoulders and full belt. Even the sports jacket at bottom right is in a fashionable "high button-three" configuration with flapped chest pocket.

Posted Image

The title of the plates reads "sportliche Kleidung für den Jugenlichen" or "sporty garments for the young". I should remind readers that if you were 25 in 1963 that you would now be 67 years old.

#54 Sator

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 12:20 PM

Another perfectly wearable idea from DSHW:

Posted Image

I like the pleated and belted back, which could also be added to the coat on the left.




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