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2011, look modern and fashionable.


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#19 Nishijin

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 04:43 PM

Where have you got the strange idea that in the past, the best tailors were more affordable than today ? High and tailors have always been expensive ! How do you think the best tailors got rich (well, those who actually got paid, some just had customers with a huge debt) ? Have you seen the prices on Mr Balzagette's blog ?


The lounge suit is not mummfied in the 1930s look. This look was a drape cut and baggy trousers. Today's cut is much more akin to the 1960s, if anything.

And no, all bespoke customers don't pay £5000 for their suit. That is only the most expensive tailors, many are much cheaper than that.

Most of my own customers ask for something maybe not that fashion-forward (they do hope to wear their garment in a few years), but still close to latest fashion. Those who want something more "timeless" actually want something that flatters their appearance, so the question is not fashion but what suits them.


And I happen to have many young customers. Of course, as has always been the rule, young customers usually feel more confortable with a young tailor than with a 70 years old guy, even if he's the best. And a few of them are actually quite innovative, asking me things they can't find anywhere. Creative customers are usually very nice guys, really fond of cloths, knowing exactly what they want... and expensive to catter for, because they ask things that I'm not used to make, so I have to think a lot, experiment... and can't charge accordingly. But it's fun, so I do it.


You really should not say things such as what made me write this, because it does harm tailor's market. It makes us look like dusty remnants of the past, it just feed an underserved stereotype about tailors.
(it may be true for some tailors, OK, I know old guys really set in their ways, but it's far from being true for many of them).



Price-wise, going to the tailor is not £5000 the suit. In France, prices start around 1500€, big names in Paris ask around 4000€ (which doesn't mean that you can't find cheaper in Paris), and I know a guy who gets his coats made for 300 to 400€ (cloth not included, and of course, quality is not the same at all, but he thus gets the very personnal fashion he likes).
High-end RTW suit in Paris cost 1500 to 2000€.

What should be said is that the not-so-expensive tailors already have too much work with the customers they have. So they don't advertise for more, and it's pretty difficult to find them. You have to know the guy who can introduce you. And of course, the less you pay, the less quality you have. A good cutter is expensive (but then, some fashion-forward customers don't care that much about the fit, they are more interested in cloth and design, and don't want to wear the coat for many years).
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#20 Sator

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 05:20 PM

Where have you got the strange idea that in the past, the best tailors were more affordable than today ?


The relative inflation adjusted price of Savile Row tailors hasn't changed in generations.

#21 Sator

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 06:23 PM

Indeed firms like Huntsman or Poole in 60s cut suits in the fashion silhouette of those days.
Believe or not this is Huntsman in 1961:

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This comes from Lois Stanbury of Kilgour, French and Stanbury of Savile Row:

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This comes from Berhard Weatherill of Bailley & Weatherill (from ASZ, 15th May, 1963):

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From E.C. Squires, 1966:

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Henry Poole, 1970s:

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Only Vampyres (like our old friend Nos :Big Grin: ) are damned to dress the same way permanently. It is time to drive a stake through the heart of any notion of some eternally fixed style that never changes:

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:yahoo:

#22 carpu65

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:57 AM

Where have you got the strange idea that in the past, the best tailors were more affordable than today ?

That is for Italy.
The reason is that in 50s,60s and 70s taxes were more low,and workers numerous and a little less paid.
For UK you are sure that the cost of a..said..Anderson & Sheppard suit in 1959 was the same of today (inflation including),
and rentals in Saville Rov same that today?
Other hands tailors were a lot (in Italy thousands),and in each city was at least an excelent tailor,that obviously,not ask same price by Caraceni or Cifonelli.



The lounge suit is not mummfied in the 1930s look. This look was a drape cut and baggy trousers.
Today's cut is much more akin to the 1960s, if anything.

Obviously proportions don't are exactly the same,but models are not changed in years.
30s are the reference model for many bespoke clothes.
For exemple,this Gentleman is André Churchwell,a renowed Atlanta cardiologist.
His suits are from Leonard Logsdail,tailor in New York.
Well,seems that 30s are still here.

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You have see significant change of silhouettes in bespoke suits in last years,like in 60s and 70s?

Edited by carpu65, 14 May 2011 - 07:24 AM.


#23 Sator

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:42 AM


You have see significant change of silhouettes in bespoke suits in last years,like in 60s and 70s?


Exactly, all we have seen is stagnation. Little wonder most people are abandoning tailored clothing and use the term "suit" as an insult.

Flusser's highly influential book Dressing the Man is devoted to the glorification of the 1930s.

#24 carpu65

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 11:45 AM

But realy "suit" is an insult in UK,Australia and USA?? :shock:
In Italy "Vestito" is a compliment! :give_rose:

#25 carpu65

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:25 PM

Exactly, all we have seen is stagnation. Little wonder most people are abandoning tailored clothing and use the term "suit" as an insult.

Flusser's highly influential book Dressing the Man is devoted to the glorification of the 1930s.

Ready to wear is change,is moved to a more clean and youth silhouette; ok the cut is often poor,exagerated and graceless, but there is a change.
Bespoke?
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#26 Nishijin

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 08:48 PM

But realy "suit" is an insult in UK,Australia and USA?? :shock:
In Italy "Vestito" is a compliment! :give_rose:


In France, some people would say "tie" instead of suit, but yeah, I understand the "insult".

The idea is that suit is no longer worn by anyone but conservative business executives, usually those who work in jobs such as accountants, finance, etc. Meaning those who prevent people actually doing "real productive work" to do their job well. Just as when people here complain when "accountants" look at number to take business decisions (as if accountants ever took a decisions, but that's another generalisation...) that prevent some tailors to do their job... See what I mean ? The idea is that "suits" work in offices and never leave them, while everybody working "on the field" wear something else.

So yes, "suits" takes a negative connotation.




Bespoke is conservative and set in the 1930's / 1960's... because some tailors are pretty set in their ways and don't want to innovate (too difficult, too risky ?). And most bespoke customers actually want a conervative cut.
The common iGent idea of "house style" is another hindrance.

But some tailors actually do their best to keep the lounge as a fashion garment. Of course, it means they must have customers who ask something else that yet another navy pinstripe business suit...

A few examples :

Djay, Paris
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André Marcel, Rouen
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(I've seen much more fashion-forward from this house, but I don't have pictures... and it's a small tailor in a small city, not a big house in Paris)

Smalto
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David Diagne
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Problem is, when a tailor tries to be fashion-forward, critics fell heavily upon him saying he is no tailor, his work is not good enough, and this kind of thing. People say there is no longer any innovation, but all they want to buy is yet another grey conservative business suit.

You know, it's pretty hard to sell an innovative cut. You have to find the right customer for it, and they are not many of them...

Oh, and yes, those are all lounge coats, and there is nothing really very new in their cut. Everything has already be done in the past. But when someone tries something very different, everybody complains it xan't be worn in real life, and wants yet another conservative coat. Or for those who don't wear coats, yet another tshirt, like there is innovation on tshirts...
Yamamoto :
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Dior :
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http://www.paulgrassart.com

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
Mark Twain

#27 0815newbie

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 11:01 PM

The notion of Permanent/Eternal Style is the biggest lie ever, and a pretty lame excuse to thoughtlessly default to wearing 80-100 year old fashions under the delusion that your fashion sense will be valid for all Eternity. It is a form of laziness that is contributing to the lounge coat going rapidly out of fashion, like the frock coat early last century.


Objection!

You continously underestimate the different nature of different humans.

One may love to have the newest fashion accessible each season though another one loves to wear his fathers or grandfahters dress to church or wherever he wants to wear such garments.

I have noticed that you are pretty stubborn (pretty sorry for that) if "modern tailoring vs. older fahsioned tailoring" is concerned.

Do not misunderstand me, if you like to further new styles etc. well do it I will not hinder you. Moreover I regard myself as open-minded enough to admit if it looks good and if it does I will maybe try it out myself. But (and that is the problem I see when I read your texts) you seem to be on a crusade which has never been and will never be a good idea.

I will stop commenting on this kind of threads because I see no effect. I (or others) might as well talk to the walls in my (their) room because you are neither willing to change your mind even a little bit nor to accept the differnces. I do not ask you do glorify frock coats, hell I would not wear one either, but I guess that I have a pretty stable taste which does not mean I wear a suit every day etc. etc. I just want to say that wearing the suits I posess (wheter new or 15 years old) makes me feel the best a piece of cloth can do. This feeling is beyond the fashion of the season. Believe it or not, I do not care.

Edited by 0815newbie, 14 May 2011 - 11:07 PM.


#28 Nishijin

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:27 AM

0815Newbie,

it seems to me that you miss the point.

The problem is not at all that some people may or may not like to wear 15 years-old garments, or even garments made for their great-granddad in the 1930s. No problem at all with that.

The problem is that it has been pretty well demonstrated that there is a life cycle (well, not cycle, a life path maybe) for garments. They start from sports or military, then becomes accepted for city wear as pretty unformal, fashion-forward, then become mainstream, then becomes codified, govern by rules and are then considered formal (which by definition means "follow a predefined form), and then end their life as liveries.

It has been the case of the frock coat, then the morning coat, the dress coat had similar evolution for night dress. Today, the lounge coat, which was a worker's outfit in the 1930, is considered formal. Diner jacket started its life as a gentlemen's leisure garment, became formal, and is in many countries on the end of its life, with midnight and dark navy lounge coats being considered formal enough for many events.

The very fact that you can see today more and more rules set of how do suitably dress in lounge coats is proof that its codification is well on course. It indeed starts to be the formal garment of today, and presumably will be the only one left in less than 20 years, at most.

But at the same time, we have nothing left as unformal garments, except chinos, jeans and tshirts. Woups, forget what I've just said, chinos start to be considered formal enough for some day events now, worn with a blazer (a sports coat that is now seen formal by many, and has its own codification).


So Sator's crusade, if it can be seen like this, is not against people who like their patiently built wardrobe, nor against those who like their granddad heritage, but is a pleading for keeping tailored garments in fashion, so they don't end too soon as livery.
If you happen to like to wear your father or grandfather's wardrobe, then have fun ! No worries with that. But this forum was not set up to discuss fashion in the 1900s, 1930s and 1950s. It is not a history forum. It is about what people wear today, and what tailors do make today. Asking to a tailor a garment inspired by the fashion of the 1930s or the 1970s is OK. Asking a tailor to copy a garment from 1930s will prove a difficult project, because we just don't have cloth from 1930 anymore. But to think that 1930 was a great time, and what a pity we don't live then, and why not try to recreate it is hopeless and a sure way to end the tailoring trade.

There are always been customers who liked old-fashioned garments. In the 1930s cutters manuals, there were chapters about older cuts, for people who still asked for them. In the 1960s manuals, there are sections about 1930s fashions, for customers who asked them. I presume some 2010 manuals have sections about old styles too (though I must say many 2010 manuals are quite poor, they don't make them anymore as good as they used to do :Big Grin: ). The problem is how to keep a living trade, relevant to the fashion-forward customers.

Of course, if you wear lounge suit to church and formal events, and spend the rest of your time in jeans and tshirt, then you might not find this quite relevant.


Maybe we are still fighting an already lost battle. Maybe. But I will keep fighting. I like to study old styles and old techniques, but I want to work in a living trade, not in a museum of lost crafts.
http://www.paulgrassart.com

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
Mark Twain

#29 carpu65

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 01:12 AM

0815Newbie,

But to think that 1930 was a great time, and what a pity we don't live then, and why not try to recreate
it is hopeless and a sure way to end the tailoring trade.


Yes was a great time!

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For the rest i have fear that now some bespoke "cognoscenti" are like this nice guy:



#30 Nishijin

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 01:19 AM

Yes was a great time!


Glad you saw my hint :Big Grin:


Note that when I think of economy and politics in Europe now, I sometimes wonder if we are not actually back to the 1930s... Not a surprise fashion follows... Can someone remind me of where I parked my DeLorean ?
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Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
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#31 carpu65

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 09:23 AM

Glad you saw my hint :Big Grin:


Note that when I think of economy and politics in Europe now, I sometimes wonder if we are not actually back to the 1930s... Not a surprise fashion follows... Can someone remind me of where I parked my DeLorean ?


I think that for many peoples in 30s, 2011 seem the paradise.
Any way we have many problems,but at least we don't way nice guys like Mussolini,Hitler,Stalin.
30s were a wonderful time....if you were a drawing on Esquire Magazine.

#32 YoungLawyer

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 03:33 AM

I think that the 4-button coat at the top of the first post is the first 4 button coat that I've ever seen which doesn't look instantly more 'Frank Weisel' than Humphry. In a dark colour it would attract little attention, I think, even though it is a cut very long.


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#33 SealKing

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 03:41 AM

That is for Italy.
The reason is that in 50s,60s and 70s taxes were more low,and workers numerous and a little less paid.
For UK you are sure that the cost of a..said..Anderson & Sheppard suit in 1959 was the same of today (inflation including),
and rentals in Saville Rov same that today?
Other hands tailors were a lot (in Italy thousands),and in each city was at least an excelent tailor,that obviously,not ask same price by Caraceni or Cifonelli.


I can verify that Savile Row prices are about the same between the 1950's and now.
I forgot the exact figure but I did the calculation using inflation figures downloaded from the IMF when I was bored.
It turns out that the prices were actually slightly higher in the 1950's after adjusting for inflation.
I think what really makes tailoring "seem" more expensive nowadays is that the middle section is dying out.

#34 SealKing

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 03:58 AM

Oh, and yes, those are all lounge coats, and there is nothing really very new in their cut. Everything has already be done in the past. But when someone tries something very different, everybody complains it xan't be worn in real life, and wants yet another conservative coat. Or for those who don't wear coats, yet another tshirt, like there is innovation on tshirts...
Yamamoto :
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Dior :
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Hi Nishijin, I've been lurking for sometime here and I would first like to thank you all for your valuable knowledge and unselfish sharing of it.

I find this issue particularly interesting. Do you think that there is actually a trend for men's fashion designers to move away from tailoring?
I for what I observe personally, as in these photo you've shown, it seems to me that most designers still regard tailored coats/jackets as the pivotal items in their collection up to this date (At least Autumn/Winter ones). Since the most fashion forward people simply won't be satisfied with t-shirts and parkas.

It seems to me that it is more of the case of some tailors being reluctant to adjust to the trends.
(e.g. If you go to a prestigious tailor and ask for a jacket a la Dior Homme, the experience probably wouldn't be very plesant)
but then again as you said, it is a vicious cycle contributed by both the tailors and the clients.
I would presume that once bespoke tailoring is re-integrated with fashion (or rather, the re-integration between the professions the tailor and the fashion designer), the evolution of the lounge coat would come naturally, and the results would be far better than those created by fashion designers who have little clue about tailoring.

Edited by SealKing, 16 May 2011 - 04:16 AM.


#35 culverwood

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 09:21 PM

As has been said here or perhaps in another thread the suit is stagnating because the younger more fashion obsessed client is no longer wearing one. In the 60s or 70s one's tailor might say "this year people are going for flat fronted trousers" or some other little bit of gossipy tittle-tattle but now the cost of a suit from a major London tailor is enough of an investment that people no longer want to follow fashion when buying one.

The younger people will know when your trainers are old-hat or if you are wearing last years football strip or whether cardigans or cravats are "in" this year but they have neither the money nor the patience to go down the bespoke road. It is for this reason that I think new trends will come from designers and RTW rather than clients and tailors of bespoke clothing.

#36 Sator

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 09:34 PM

The younger people will know when your trainers are old-hat or if you are wearing last years football strip or whether cardigans or cravats are "in" this year but they have neither the money nor the patience to go down the bespoke road. It is for this reason that I think new trends will come from designers and RTW rather than clients and tailors of bespoke clothing.


This is a good point. However, while the stuff on the runway is wild and extreme, the stuff that actually gets into the designer's store is often pretty conservative because the accountant is worried that the wilder cuts will end up unsold on the shelves. The weird stuff on the racks of stores is usually cheap and poorly made up - and looks like it is ready to be discarded at the end of the season. The more expensive RTW becomes the more conservative the styles tend to become.

It's a catch 22 situation.

Personally, I think that if the tailor suggests the right fashionable cut to the right client in a way that suits their figure and personality, that it can really shine in a way that no RTW could ever do. It's for this reason that the Mods in the 1960s wore bespoke suits.




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