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#37 CoronarJunkee

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 08:22 AM

However, while the stuff on the runway is wild and extreme, the stuff that actually gets into the designer's store is often pretty conservative because the accountant is worried that the wilder cuts will end up unsold on the shelves. The weird stuff on the racks of stores is usually cheap and poorly made up - and looks like it is ready to be discarded at the end of the season. The more expensive RTW becomes the more conservative the styles tend to become.


That might be true for big department stores or shops in a shopping centre. In the brand's flagship stores you will find the more extraordinary items as well and customers might travel there in order to get them. There are also shops that specialise on the items with a particularly strong design that put across the brand's identity best. There's for example one shop like this in Paris. Although it caters to a certain clientele only, price- and designwise, it's very interesting to go there to breathe some fresh air. It's a bit like a fashion laboratory. Not only the big big big names but also all these young new fashion designers are there that you see less in the magazines. And there often are very interesting and intriguing details as well as materials one wouldn't have thought of using for everyday fashion.

Anyways

One comment to frock-coatish discussions...
There's a trend, at least for a certain part of society, backwards. Since the 80ies, looking forward doesn't seem so interesting and appealing anymore. Also socially so. The "older times" had the "advantage" that everyone had his place in society. Social progress has made it possible to switch social status and class but for the price of feeling a bit rootless sometimes. "Back then" becomes attractive without knowing what exactly it implies. Of course, that isn't true for everyone.
The trend backwards expresses itself in various domains. Furniture (long gone the time of 150% design-interiors with glass and stainless steel everywhere - welcome "shabby chic", patina and furniture with stories to tell), design in general (retrodesign for almost everything you might use in everyday life), for cars, for bikes... well... for clothes as well.
We've seen a few examples of turn-of-the-century fashion suits on runways and so on.
What I want to say is that these people might be potential clients, too. They wouldn't want to wear frock coats but maybe some fancy design elements of past times might make them happier than a plain modern lounge. Keeping an eye open on what those "dead styles" have to offer might not be a totally stupid idea. Not only for the details but also regarding the cut.
For example: a waist seam is the most sensible thing to do if you want a garment to be very waisted (or multiple narrow panels, of course). So if the trend continues slimming down everything, why not reintroduce a waist seam on a lounge? Or maybe just from the chest dart to the back seam? The donlon wedge is already a bit that...
My two cents

Cheers to all

David

#38 Sator

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 10:43 AM

That might be true for big department stores or shops in a shopping centre. In the brand's flagship stores you will find the more extraordinary items as well and customers might travel there in order to get them. There are also shops that specialise on the items with a particularly strong design that put across the brand's identity best. There's for example one shop like this in Paris. Although it caters to a certain clientele only, price- and designwise, it's very interesting to go there to breathe some fresh air. It's a bit like a fashion laboratory. Not only the big big big names but also all these young new fashion designers are there that you see less in the magazines. And there often are very interesting and intriguing details as well as materials one wouldn't have thought of using for everyday fashion.


Stores like this are as hard to find as bespoke tailor's stores. There is nothing like it in this country, and I have never come across anything like it in New York or London either. However, I probably didn't look hard enough. Parisians are probably a bit more daring with their fashion, and more willing to experiment. The trouble is if you did buy for yourself in these places, unless you are a very common size, it can be very hard to find things that fit, as the manufacturing run is very small. More importantly, the most important ingredient to getting striking and interesting cuts to work is that of fit. If something doesn't fit, the most imaginative idea in the world falls flat on its face.

This is why virtually every standard type of garment in wear today were creations of bespoke tailors. The lounge coat, trench coat, morning coat, dress coat, Ulster overcoat, Chesterfield overcoat, greatcoat, and Norfolk jackets were all introduced by bespoke tailors. All of these were at one point fashionable novelties. I think it is easier for bespoke tailors to suggest novel and interesting cuts to clients than it is for RTW retailers to do so, because the resulting garment will fit well - and fit, is the essence of good style. Some, if not all, bespoke clients like to wear garments that have absolute uniqueness to them.

There used to be a whole industry that was designed to encourage bespoke clients to try out novel fashions and to keep up with the latest trends. That was the raison d'etre of the fashion plate :Idea: A tailor would order in the latest plates to show to clients to discourage them from permanently wearing the same garment on the basis that it was eternally fashionable.

#39 Sator

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 01:27 PM

One more important point that needs to be made is that this forum is meant to be for modern tailors and modern clients.

If you actually look through the orders passing through a modern bespoke tailor's store most of it is pretty conservative stuff ie 90-95% lounge suits. If you work in a colder climate, you may get an occasional order for an overcoat. In the shop I get to work in, the owner says he hasn't had an overcoat order in ten years. He had one dress coat order from an orchestral musician in the last 20 twenty years. You may only get a couple of dinner jacket orders in a year. Most clients consider the most outrageous thing they will ask for to be a ticket pocket, and even then they may spend ages agonising over whether this was right or not. Many clients are terrified of ordering a double breasted ("reefer") jacket.

On the other hand, if you look at the history of this forum, you would be forgiven for thinking that 90% of orders are for frock coats, morning coats, Inverness cloaks, capes, paletots, cassocks, dress coats, doublets and other fancy garments. When there is a massive discrepancy between the sort of style/fashion issues that concern real world tailors/clients and what is being posted to the forum, there is something very seriously wrong.

It's time this forum returns from its trip into a costume wonderland to the real world of bespoke tailoring. Novel and fashionable ideas too must be those you could imagine suggesting to your clients (of course you have to choose the right client to make the right styling suggestion to).

#40 carpu65

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 01:47 PM

The lounge coat, trench coat, morning coat, dress coat, Ulster overcoat, Chesterfield overcoat, greatcoat, and Norfolk jackets were all introduced by bespoke tailors.


Tailors... or customers?
Still today we talk about Beau Brummel,not about Jonathan Meyer or Schweitzer and Davidson (his tailors).
I think that in XIX and early XX (but also in mid XX,see the "mods" for exemple)
fashions was created by customers,not by tailors.

Edited by carpu65, 17 May 2011 - 01:47 PM.


#41 Sator

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 02:23 PM

Clients or tailors? Obviously, it is both. However, all of these classical cuts have logical seam placements that takes a trained cutter to design, otherwise you end up with fashion designer garments that are illogical. Many old fashion plates I own have pen marks where the tailor and client have agreed on changes to the design.

#42 CoronarJunkee

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 05:42 PM

Stores like this are as hard to find as bespoke tailor's stores. There is nothing like it in this country, and I have never come across anything like it in New York or London either. However, I probably didn't look hard enough. Parisians are probably a bit more daring with their fashion, and more willing to experiment. The trouble is if you did buy for yourself in these places, unless you are a very common size, it can be very hard to find things that fit, as the manufacturing run is very small. More importantly, the most important ingredient to getting striking and interesting cuts to work is that of fit. If something doesn't fit, the most imaginative idea in the world falls flat on its face.


I was obviously talking about ready to wear. Might be that cities like Paris, London or New York attract more "fashion victims" than other cities. What I meant to say is that fashion forward people do exist. And by that, I don't talk about the pseudo fashion forward style that exhibits yet another boring dress item in a "new" colour or with "new" styling attributes but really clothes in movement. Of course, for now, there are still two sleeves and therefore (mostly) armholes, a neckhole, probably a collar and so on but there's so many things that can evolve... I think the relationship between body and clothes in terms of ease or constraint, as well as the appearance it gives to the wearer is what is most subject to change. At least in this aspect as well as for fabrics, ideas can be gotten from fashion.

If you actually look through the orders passing through a modern bespoke tailor's store most of it is pretty conservative stuff ie 90-95% lounge suits. If you work in a colder climate, you may get an occasional order for an overcoat. In the shop I get to work in, the owner says he hasn't had an overcoat order in ten years. He had one dress coat order from an orchestral musician in the last 20 twenty years. You may only get a couple of dinner jacket orders in a year. Most clients consider the most outrageous thing they will ask for to be a ticket pocket, and even then they may spend ages agonising over whether this was right or not. Many clients are terrified of ordering a double breasted ("reefer") jacket.

On the other hand, if you look at the history of this forum, you would be forgiven for thinking that 90% of orders are for frock coats, morning coats, Inverness cloaks, capes, paletots, cassocks, dress coats, doublets and other fancy garments. When there is a massive discrepancy between the sort of style/fashion issues that concern real world tailors/clients and what is being posted to the forum, there is something very seriously wrong.


I'm not talking about resurrecting anything 1:1. I totally agree with you and wouldn't want to make frock coats or anything. This can't be a future trend. Although, when you look at the "creative" cutting style of Tavide Taub you admire so much, it's nothing really new. He's just open to things that do already exist and adapts them to his likes (besides the transferred seams for the curved seam styles which is a fashion styling element). What's new about adding a vertical seam to a lounge to be able to take the waist in a bit more without creating drags? It's done in women's wear and bodycoats have a seam more as well. It's the fact that he dares to break the rules that's "new" or different as well as inspiring and refreshing. It's rules like "a lounge has a front and a back part, as well as a side body for those who are forward thinking, with seams and darts placed here and there and nowhere else" that keep men's tailoring from evolving. All that's moving in the lounge draft since the 1920s is the neck point (and the donlon wedge... which existed for corpulent cuts way before that). That's not a very radical change. The lounge comes directly from the frock coat and you can see very well when what seam gets lost and what dart gets added. Both styles went on co-existing. Things were evolving back then. Why can't we make things evolve now? There's quite a few solutions to the fashionably strong waist suppression that allow for less ironwork and avoid drags. But that means to move away from the standard lounge draft. And maybe, past cutting styles can give us hints for future cuts, concerning cutting techniques as well as styling issues.
At least, that's my opinion.

#43 culverwood

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 06:34 PM

Stores like this are as hard to find as bespoke tailor's stores. There is nothing like it in this country, and I have never come across anything like it in New York or London either. However, I probably didn't look hard enough. Parisians are probably a bit more daring with their fashion, and more willing to experiment. The trouble is if you did buy for yourself in these places, unless you are a very common size, it can be very hard to find things that fit, as the manufacturing run is very small. More importantly, the most important ingredient to getting striking and interesting cuts to work is that of fit. If something doesn't fit, the most imaginative idea in the world falls flat on its face.


In London Dover Street Market is the sort of place you are talking about, mostly womens' fashion and the menswear is a bit gay but definitely fashion forward.
http://www.doverstre...rket.com/about/

#44 Nishijin

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 07:19 PM

Most clients consider the most outrageous thing they will ask for to be a ticket pocket, and even then they may spend ages agonising over whether this was right or not. Many clients are terrified of ordering a double breasted ("reefer") jacket.


Well, it seems I am very lucky then, because I have customers a lot more daring than this.
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#45 NuMor

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 07:57 PM

"...classical cuts have logical seam placements that takes a trained cutter to design, otherwise you end up with fashion designer garments that are illogical."

"...fit, is the essence of good style."

If I may state my opinion as a client; I am no strict traditionalist when it comes to clothing - or other things, for that matter – but I do like to feel comfortable in my clothes, and there is a certain comfort in wearing clothing designs (for the lack of a better word) that have given proof of usage, clothing that is adapted to the function it is used/meant for.
This does not mean I cannot imagine such designs may be improved or modified – I make suggestions to my tailor about changes to this or that item, which I think may look/wear better in this or that way (and suggestions they are, I expect/want to be contradicted if they are not feasible, actually ruin the item they were supposed to improve, or make no practical/aesthetical sense) – but I think any changes must take into consideration:

-The function the item will be used for;
-The fit, the item must be adapted to the person wearing it (which would seem obvious but, looking at some of the pictures shown in this forum, maybe it is not);
-The fabric, which must follow function and will allow for a better fit (I think).

So far, the changes I have seen, in the very modest and unlearned opinion of an eventual wearer of such changes, do not always convince me. Most seem “takes on” or “variations of”, that may alter but do not really improve an item of clothing.

#46 SealKing

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 11:58 PM

Stores like this are as hard to find as bespoke tailor's stores. There is nothing like it in this country, and I have never come across anything like it in New York or London either. However, I probably didn't look hard enough.


Hi Sator, there is a store in Melbourne called "Eastern Market" that stock things you might be interested in. Their address is: The Old Chapel, 107 Grattan St, Carlton
The approach of some of the designers, such as Carol Christian Poell, is rather similar to Davide Taub.
http://www.komakinos...christian-poell
(Not Eastern Market's website but they carry basically the same thing)
The fit is obviously not as good as Taub's but the fabric/details are quite intriguing.

Edited by SealKing, 18 May 2011 - 11:59 PM.


#47 Sator

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 12:27 AM

The approach of some of the designers, such as Carol Christian Poell, is rather similar to Davide Taub.
http://www.komakinos...christian-poell



Oh my God! That's hideous:

Posted Image

It's nothing like the sort of panelled lounges that I or Davide Taub cut. In fact, it just looks like another generic CAD programme generated lounge draft.

The fit is obviously not as good as Taub's


That's an understatement. :LMAO: It's not as good as most of the amateurs on the forum - even on their first attempts.

#48 SealKing

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 01:24 AM

Oh my God! That's hideous:

It's nothing like the sort of panelled lounges that I or Davide Taub cut. In fact, it just looks like another generic CAD programme generated lounge draft.



That's an understatement. :LMAO: It's not as good as most of the amateurs on the forum - even on their first attempts.

Ok, after taking a look at the jacket you pointed out I guess I have to change it to "pretty horrible".
And I have to admit there's nothing innovative about that either, no way I could defend that.
Would you perhaps consider this as somehow interesting in terms of the cut/seams?
(Strange combination of front and back?)
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

#49 Nishijin

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 02:18 AM

This kind of sleeve, with set-in front and raglan back, is quite unusual, but not un-heard of. I have examples in several cutters' manuals.

It's pretty hard to make something really new in menswear, after more than a century living in basically the same garments. Variations are cloth/fabric, ease (close or loose fittting), lengths and details (pockets, lapels), but not the general lines. Everybody ends having the same ideas after a time.

That does not mean that fashion is dead or limited to reiterate what has already been done. It means that in mature industries, innovation is more frequently in refining the details than in radical new ideas.


I've never seen sleeves with this seam at the back of the elbow (which does not mean it hasn't been done before, there are many things I've never seen). I don't know if it is a fit feature, or just a limit of the size of the skin, since the raglan shoulder makes a longer sleeve.

Some close-fitted lady's sleeves used to have a seam at the elbow to give them shape. It may be the same idea (though I think the seam was on the inside of the elbow, not at the outside).
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#50 David V

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 06:26 AM

Oh my God! That's hideous:

Posted Image

It's nothing like the sort of panelled lounges that I or Davide Taub cut. In fact, it just looks like another generic CAD programme generated lounge draft.



That's an understatement. :LMAO: It's not as good as most of the amateurs on the forum - even on their first attempts.



They want almost $3000 for the jacket and another $1300 for the pants!

#51 I.Brackley

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 06:43 AM

Popped by the site for a look-see and was left wondering; why didn't they hem the trousers, or at the very least pin them up for the sake of the photo? (ditto the coat's cuffs) Otherwise what's the point of having a trouser that skinny if the effect is ruined by it bunching up and down the leg?
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#52 Nishijin

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 06:48 AM

They want almost $3000 for the jacket and another $1300 for the pants!


HK$, right ?

When I look at the trousers and sleeves, I think maybe he trained with Honoré, famous master tailor of Marseille :

Here, 57:10
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=IT44MLFF

For those who don't speak French, "Ah, but I am not as those tailors, who takes the measures the closest possible. Not me ! The cloth, I give the customer enough to enjoy !"
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#53 CoronarJunkee

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 07:04 AM

Looks like a sewn-in gusset to me. Not a bad idea. For bike and stuff.

#54 0815newbie

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 07:46 AM

They want almost $3000 for the jacket and another $1300 for the pants!


I bet that there will be a lunatic who will buy it. You always get an idiot if you need one.

Edited by 0815newbie, 19 May 2011 - 07:47 AM.





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