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Cutting Collars - Undercollars and Topcollars


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#1 Sator

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 02:21 AM

The Schneidermeister System

As the starting point of this thread I thought I would use the following discussion from a circa 1950s Schneidermeister text.

First, they give a fairly typical method of cutting the undercollar.

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Stage 1 Abb 82
1. find the point k about 3-3.5 cm below the neckpoint, Hs.
2. k1-k collar stand height. = 2.5-3 cm depending on the desired position of the roll line. The roll is extended as far upward as k3
3. collar length based on the measured length of the back neck from W to k2 is placed from k2-k3

Stage 2 Abb 83
Displace backwards from k3 to k4. For a normal collar design this distance is set at 3 cm. The collar break line is drafted with a slight curvature to k1

Stage 3 Abb 84
Collar stand height. The same distance as k1-k. The collar stand height keeps the same height as it runs below the collar break line.

Stage 4 Abb 85
1. k6 to k2 is the front collar length. This is about 2/3rds of the back neck seam length. However, this can be changed according to taste and fashion.
2. k7 to k6 is the front collar width. This is usually about 1/2cm shorter than the corresponding lapel length from the gorge.

Stage 5 Abb 86
Centre back of collar. Square out from k8 to find k5

The next part of the Schneidermeister discussion is highly interesting in that it deals with the subject of how the collar is cut and how this relates to the correct ironwork on the collar.

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Abb 87 shows how point k4 (the collar break line) can be set back by varying amounts (0-5 cm). Abb 88 shows a collar where k4 is not displaced backwards at all. Abb 89 shows the opposite extreme with point k4 set back significantly. The amount by which k4 is displaced backwards dictates how the ironwork proceeds, as shown by Abb 90-92. If it is not displaced backwards then the collar fall edge has to be stretched so that it can sit without tension (Abb 90). If k4 is displaced backwards modestly, as shown in Abb 91, then both the top of collar fall and base of stand must be modestly stretched. When k4 is displaced back further, as shown in Abb 92, the base of collar stand only is stretched.

The amount of displacement of point k4 depends on the system. In this case, they recommend 3 cm. However, in actual fact this should be varied by the style of the coat rather than this being a rigidly fixed value. Where the lapel is longer button-two style, then this should be reduced by around 5 mm. If the lapel is even longer, the amount of displacement of the break line is accordingly further reduced. Where the lapel is short, and the buttoning point is high the amount of displacement should be increased.

The reason for varying the displacement of the collar break line is that the outer edge of the collar fall is longer than the roll line. The displacement of the collar break line adds extra length to the outer edge of the collar fall. Shorter lapelled coats need more displacement, and longer lapelled coats need less displacement.

A couple of years ago when Jefferyd briefly revealed to us his collar cutting method, his standard displacement of the collar break line was 1.9cm (3/4"). For a long lapelled button-two he reduced this to 5/8" (1.6cm) and for a shorter lapelled button-three he increased it to 7/8" (2.2cm).

#2 Sator

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 03:02 AM

The 1960s Rundschau System

Next we will look at the Rundschau system for cutting collars. For their current system please purchase the HAKA book from the Mueller & Sons website. The following system comes from the circa 1960 Zuschnitt book (note that the style of revers is a button-three with a relatively short lapel):

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Abb 196
H1-h1. The roll line is usually set 2 cm away from the neckpoint. Extend the roll line upwards to draft the collar.
H1-k collar length = the back neck

Abb 197
k- square out
k-k1 displace back collar break line 2.5 cm
n-n1 the middle of the gorge seam = 2.5 cm
k1-n1 draw in collar break line

Abb 198
k1-k2 collar stand height = 2.5 cm
k2-n draw collar edge parallel
Square out from k2 to draft centre of collar

Abb 199
k1-k3 height collar fall = about 4 cm
k4- front collar width and length dependent of collar style
k3-k4 Outer collar edge

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Abb 200 The Collar for a Double Breasted Coat
Note here that although the lapel is long, the amount of displacement of the collar breakline is not reduced. DB collars need more displacement.
h1- lengthen roll line
H1-k collar length = back neck
k- square out
k-k1 collar break line = 2.5cm
k2 square out for centre back
k1-k3 collar fall height = 4cm
k4- front collar widht
k3-k4 collar stand edge

Abb 201 Collar for a Long Lapelled Coat
Note that the backward displacement of the collar break line is reduced for a longer lapelled button-two or button-one style of coat.
h1- extend roll line
H1-k collar length = back neck
k- square out
k-k1 collar break line = 2 cm. Join to n1
k1-k2 collar stand height = 2.5 cm. Join to n
k2- square out to draft centre back
k1-k3 collar fall width
k4- front collar width and length according to taste
k3-k4 collar fall edge

Abb 202 Collar for a Short Lapelled Slip-on Coat
This is an example of a collar for a short lapelled top coat with a modestly widened collar fall width. The displacement of the collar break line is increased.
k1- extend roll line
H1-k collar length = back neck
k- square out
k-k1 collar break line = 3-3.5 cm
k1-k2 collar stand = 3cm
k2- square out for centre back
k1-k3 collar fall = 4-5 cm
k4- front collar width and length as per style of revers
k3-k4 collar fall edge

On the next example of a very short lapelled style of revers on an overcoat from Rundschau September, 1973, the break line has been displaced backwards even further - by 5 cm! The reason for this is partly because of the shortness of the lapel but also because of the extra width of the collar fall. The wider collar leaf needs extra length to go around the neck.

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Next, for contrast is an example of a ladies' collar from the ladies' Zuschnitt XVI from circa 1960:

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The method is similar, but the draft is nett (no seam allowances). Note that the height of collar stand has been reduced down to a more feminine 2cm. The amount of displacement of break line is shown as 2.5cm but in other figures this is shown as being between 2-3cm. One unusual feature of this draft is that the length of the collar is set by the formula of back neck PLUS 0.5 cm. The reason for the addition of a 0.5cm ease not explained anywhere. In fact, the current Rundschau collar system has you subtract 1 cm from the back neck, presumably to make room for stretching by ironwork.

However, by 1973 the addition of 0.5cm ease to the collar length seems to have disappeared from the Rundschau ladies' system:

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Note that on this wider collar style with a short lapel, the amount of displacement of the break line has been increased to 4 cm.

The following collar comes from ladies' Rundschau 3/1982 and shows a similar cut:

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Once again, the lapel is short and the amount of displacement is significant, at 4.5 cm. The increase in the displacement is probably because the collar fall is wider (4.5 cm), and the collar fall edge needs more length given to it. Note that no ease is added to the length of back neck.

#3 Sator

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 03:56 AM

The Bunka Undercollar

The Bunka men's books have not been translated into English, unlike their ladies' counterparts. The following is the Bunka undercollar from the Bunka book on coats and vests. It is similar to the present day Rundschau method, with both methods having a standard 1.5 cm displacement of the breakline for a medium length step lapel. The method shown in this book is easier to follow than in the English translation of the ladies book.

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The x indicates that the length of the back neck seam should be applied here. It should be noted that the undercollar is drafted nett - without seam allowances. If seams are present these are subtracted. When measuring the length of back neck, this should be done nett as well.

Although few books mention this (including the Rundschau and Bunka texts), it is generally best to draft collars only after the body is well proofed and fitting corrections completed. The back neck should be measured directly off the coat, minus seam allowances.

The Bunka Topcollar

Next up is a rarity in the literature from the same Bunka book . Nothing like it is found in the English versions of the ladies cutting book. It is a system for deriving a pattern for a topcollar from the undercollar pattern. The most notable feature of this method is that it reduces the amount of stretching necessary along the top edge of the collar fall.

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Note that at the end seam allowances are added as shown.

The accompanying method of making up the collar is as follows:

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I find it rather puzzling. I am not sure why they shrink along the collar fall like this and still stretch at the middle.

Notice too the distance of 5.5cm. This is only true for a proportionate figure. For sloped shoulder this should be reduced to 4cm. For square shoulders this should be increased to 7 cm.

One suggested modification to the Bunka topcollar draft is as follows:

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This helps to reduce the amount of ironwork on the collar fall. The extra length introduced by stretching the collar fall (top) edge is cut into the top collar pattern by the cut. The need for ironwork is displaced more towards the collar stand (bottom) edge, which needs to be stretched by 1 cm.

#4 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 04:03 AM

K - K1 should be 3cm for the avarage neck, no matter if long or short lapel. You will see that when the iron work has to be done.
With 2.5cm you have to rape the canvas a little bit more. With 3cm the iron work goes smoother.
K1 - K2 need to be only 2cm otherwise the collar stand goes up to the ears, completely outdated today.

Principle: a more round collar stand lays flatter around the neck
a more not so round collar like the Rundschau one here goes up to the ears + 2.5cm collar stand makes it even worst(1950).
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#5 CoronarJunkee

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 08:45 AM

I don't get why the displacement from the roll line should be different on a short or long lapel... the breakline itself changes its angle so why change the collar draft since it just moves along?

I work with 3cm displacement as well and do hardly any stretching on the fall - only on the stand. I do increase the displacement for a forward pitched neck and decrease it for a very straight neck. This way, I keep my working up method the same for different postures and don't measure distance from collar breakline at center and at the edge like Jukes does in his jacket thread.

#6 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 01:04 PM

I don't get why the displacement from the roll line should be different on a short or long lapel... the breakline itself changes its angle so why change the collar draft since it just moves along?

I work with 3cm displacement as well and do hardly any stretching on the fall - only on the stand. I do increase the displacement for a forward pitched neck and decrease it for a very straight neck. This way, I keep my working up method the same for different postures and don't measure distance from collar breakline at center and at the edge like Jukes does in his jacket thread.


Very good, still the collar stand has to have the same hight from the breakline in the center and beginnings.
Redrafting the collar stand after iron work and cut off the surplus over 2cm. The horse shoe U has to have a hight in the middle of 6.5cm.
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#7 posaune

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 06:24 PM

When the lapel line is short (crossing CF above bust) the collar needs more outer length than a longer lapel. The same if you have a small or a large collar. The small needs less. The ease ranges from - 0.5 cm up to 1 cm
That is in ladies construction.
lg
posaune

Edited by posaune, 06 June 2011 - 06:25 PM.


#8 Sator

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 07:38 PM

^ It is the same for both men and women's collars.

The following text has some interesting things about problems primarily arising from faulty collars (rather than secondary collar problem that are the consequence of other issues). It is Garment Cutting and Tailoring by Bertha Milton, London, 1967:

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Note in particular the section entitled "A Collar Defective in Control".

Unfortunately, in addition to being rather poorly written, there appears to be a misprint because the content seems contradictory. It should read (my change in bold text):

A long turn needs a round collar. (A coat that is required to roll anywhere between the breast and the waist line is a low rolling one. A coat that is to roll above the breast line is a high one.) The shorter the turn the straighter the collar must be.

Remedy: The radical cure would be to cut and fit another collar suitable to the gorge and the length of the turn.
Fortunately, in most cases it is not necessary; a drawing thread and an iron will do much. What one has to secure is a correct break and amount of spring at that part. It is evident that a rounded collar-end produces a short leaf, and these together control the turn.



The terms short and long turn are very old. The following comes from an 1866 text:

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A long turn is for when the lapel is short. This requires a "round" collar (ie one with greater displacement backwards of the break line).
A short turn is for when the lapel is long. This requires a "straight" collar (ie one with a reduced displacement backwards of the break line.)

The reason given is that "a rounded collar-end produces a short leaf" (collar fall outer edge). So, as Posaune says, to compensate you elongate the leaf by drafting a "rounder" collar (with greater displacement backwards of the break line).

To illustrate this in more detail look at angle A produced by the lapel break line and the collar on this button-two coat:

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Compare angle A with angle B on a button-three coat:

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Angle B is much more acute. If you were driving a car upwards along the lapel break line heading in the direction of the top of the centre back of collar, you would find yourself turning a much sharper corner to get around to the centre back of the collar:

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To reflect the fact that you had to work harder to get around the "long turn" of the sharper bend, the collar has to be more angled here as well.

Next look at this DB coat:

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Even though the lapel extends downwards as deep as it does with the button-two lounge coat, the fact that it is a DB coat makes the angle C formed by the DB revers automatically sharper.

The following diagram summarises the how steep the bend is to get from the lapel to the centre back of collar for the above three scenarios:

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Next, imagine that instead of driving along the edge of the lapel break line and the top edge of the collar, you are forced to go along the outside lane:

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This is exactly what is happening to you if you were driving your car upwards along the outside edge of the lapel. The turn you would be forced to make to get around to the centre back of the collar would be very sharp and very long.

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You need to draft your collar to reflect the fact that the corner you need to turn is both sharper and longer if the collar fall edge is to reach the centre back.

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#9 Sator

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 09:31 PM

B.W. Poole System (1936)
From The Science of Pattern Construction Second Edition

As this chapter is surprisingly good I have decided to include all of it in this thread. I have decided to post the entire chapter whole rather than split it between this forum and the ladies' tailoring forum. It makes a useful supplement to the rest of the thread. You can see some of the previously articulated principles here. For example, that a short lapelled coat needs a collar with more displacement of the collar break line (E to Ex in the Poole drafts). Double breasted collars need more displacement, as do wider collar designs such as those found on overcoats.

The discussion accompanying figure 136 is particularly good. Poole is about the only author who bothers to discuss the issue about adding seam allowances to an undercollar pattern. He shows how to add seam allowances but also says that it depends on your method of working. Many tailors avoid having a seam here and prefer to fell the collar on for the added thinness.

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#10 Sator

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 11:08 PM

The Tailor & Cutter System

Since we already have the Schneidermeister, Bunka, Rundschau and Poole collar systems here, we might as well add some T&C collar drafts here too. These come from A.A. Whife in A First Course in Gentlemen's Garment Cutting:

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Note the way he refers to the straighter short turn collar.

Here are some overcoat collars from the same book:

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However, this comes from MTOC, 1949:

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Here are the Chaudhry era collar drafts for a lounge and a reefer from circa 1970:

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#11 Sator

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 11:33 PM

The New Mitchell System 1951

Next comes the collar system for the New Mitchell System:

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#12 Sator

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 11:45 AM

More on cutting collars with a long turn. This article by P. Kunick comes from The Tailor & Cutter, April 23, 1948:

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#13 Torry Kratch

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 10:00 AM

The collar of his jacket and single-breasted coat by a "Single method of designing clothing 1965".(Единая Методика Конструирования Одежды [ЕМКО])


Angle "Г82 Г7 Г81" --- The reduction in iron.

Point (Л) will coincide with the point of (Л0) after ironing lapel.

From the point of (Лo) A tangent to the curve of the neck to the intersection with shoulder line at the point (Зo).

Rack height collar ( В стойки) = 2.5 ... 3.5 cm.

From the point (Зo) to the right to continue the line of the shoulder lay a segment (Зo З):

(Зо З) = В стойки - 0.5 cm.

Through (З) and (Лo) is pursuing a line bend lapel.

(lp) --- the length of the back of the neck.

(З З1) = lp

(Ф З1) --- arc to the left.

The chord of the arc to defer (В стойки), plus gain from table N13.

From the point of (З2) A tangent to the line of the neck. Point of intersection of this tangent with the shoulder line represent (З3).

At the points (Z2) and (Z3) is carried out perpendicular to the tangent and lay them on the segments (З2 З4) and (З3 З5):

(З2 З4) = В стойки,
(З3 З5) = В стойки - 0.5 cm.

Points (Z4) and (Z5) join the line and then draw up a smooth transition from the line of the collar stand in a line bend lapel.


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Edited by Torry Kratch, 15 June 2011 - 10:10 AM.


#14 Torry Kratch

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 10:04 AM

.

Edited by Torry Kratch, 15 June 2011 - 10:07 AM.

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