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Lounge Coat - Darts


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#1 Sator

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 09:33 PM

This article on the darting of lounge coats comes from an Austrian tailoring journal Österreichische Schneider-Zeitung published in Vienna, August, 1949. This journal doesn't seems to have its own cutting system but rather mostly reprints material from Rundschau.

They start by saying that men's coats are more conservatively darted than ladies' coats, where seams can be placed almost anywhere you wish. They also stress that one of the aims of darting a coat is to avoid the intensive and time consuming ironwork that used to undertaken in the distant past. The style of the coat is also important - whether slim fitting or with more drape (ie general ease/fullness) in the chest.

The first type of lounge coat has no side body.

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They mention that darts need to be placed so as to run parallel to the pattern and not across it. They state that the nett waist suppression from the front dart and underarm seam should be 1 cm or 3/8". They state that this simply darted coat is more suited to ready-to-wear and that it has the disadvantage of producing excessive skirtiness.

My own comments are that the amount of waist suppression from this style of fish shaped dart can be increased slightly more than what is stated but it has to be kept conservative, even when the tailor is willing to perform more intensive ironwork. The width of armscye should be kept very narrow (much narrower than the standard post-war RS width of scye), and the amounts of ease at the across chest and back should be kept minimal. This is suitable only for a slim jacket with a minimal drop or else a boxier cut. I should add that you can run the front dart on an angle and slightly increase its size if the cloth is a plain design. You see this in older texts from the 1930s (both Schneidermeister and T&C drafts) but the practice has fallen by the wayside. Another trick is to extend the front dart a little below the level of the side pockets while increasing the size of the dart. There is also little point in extending the underarms dart upwards into the armscye (an example of this style of darting with be shown in a later post in this thread), except where it is intended to perform ironwork at the waist suppression of underarm seam.

The second style of lounge coat dart has the following form:

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The side point is displaced backwards in the pattern manipulation shown. This helps to avoid excessive skirtiness forming without having to cut through the pocket.

The third type is a follows:

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The underarm seam is cut through to the hem to form a side body. The front dart is opened up by 1.5 cm at side pocket level. The amount of waist suppression at waist level is kept at 1 cm. They say that this is because every figure needs some chest drape. They also recommend a 1/2 cm Donlon wedge be taken out at the pocket.

This style of darting a coat has become standard in the Rundschau system and the T&C system was starting to incorporate it into the standard draft in 1970.

This leads to the fifth style of lounge coat dart:

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They recommend this for an athletic figure with a large drop from chest to waist, and when the stripes are wide enough that enlarging the front dart will not cause a disruption of pattern matching. The pocket is cut through to form allow the overpocket section to be displaced outwards with the cuts in the chest as shown (a-b and a-c). The front dart is opened up at side pocket level by around 2 cm (up to a maximum of 3 cm).

The sixth style of darting a lounge coat is as follows:

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The front dart is extended through to the hem but the amount of waist suppression at the waist is kept at 1 cm. They keep the waist suppression at the underarm seam at 1 cm, but then take out 1/2-3/4 cm at the hem to control the flair of the skirt produced by the waist suppression. The extend front dart is opened up 1.5 cm at the hem (no seams on darts). Note that they only permit this as an option where the coat has patch pockets to hide the extended front dart.

The seventh style of lounge coat dart is the same as the previous but with an enlarged extended front dart:

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They recommend this for a figure with a more prominent chest. The side point is displaced backwards to open up a gap of 1 cm at the top of underarm seam (point 4). The front is enlarged by 1/2-3/4 cm at the hem. Note how cuts from a-b and a-c open up the front dart until the dart is opened by 2 cm at side pocket level. Once again they recommend against this style of darting for cloths with stripes or checks, and only where there are patch pockets to hide the extended front dart.

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Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#2 Sator

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 10:28 PM

I should probably add a word of warning when opening up the overpocket displacement of the front dart on side bodied styles of lounge coat. I say "overpocket displacement" because this is different to increasing the actual waist displacement of the dart, once the displacement is closed off.

In the following example the overpocket displacement has been increased to 2.5 cm. This is done by means of cuts inserted into the chest, which are opened up by 1/4 cm as shown. Note that the way the cuts are inserted into the paper pattern is different to the Austrian journal article.

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Fertigte Naht means "finished seam" or one that is drafted nett without seam allowances.

You can draft seams like this so that once the overpocket displacement is closed, you still have some extra waist suppression at the waistline. The amount should be kept small, at around 0.5-1 cm, otherwise ironwork will be required on the front dart.

The next thing to note is that the back balance is increased by 1/4 cm (the same amount by which the chest cuts were opened up at the front). This is because the overpocket displacement exerts a crookening effect on the balance, which throws length to the fronts. To balance out this effect, the back balance is increased by 1/4 cm.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#3 Sator

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 10:37 PM

Another way of darting a coat. Peter Ostinelli was a particularly strong lifelong advocate of this style of darting, although he was not the inventor. The Ostinelli side body is an insert that goes under the armscye. The main argument for the Ostinelli side body style of coat is that it avoids having a visible seam formed by extending either the front dart or the underarm dart to the hem. Even when this style of darting is deployed on a coat without much of a drop from chest to waist, the extra seam to suppress the waist allows the burden of waist suppression to be distributed over more seams, thus reducing distortion.

This comes from the 1938 Zuschneidekunst:

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The front dart is opened up by straightening the neckpoint with a straightening dart closed at point 1. When you close the front dart again, it exerts a crookening effect on the neckpoint, which restores the neckpoint back to neutral position.

Ostinelli also uses a straightening dart in the form of a gorge dart transferred to the front dart.

This is how Whife adds the Ostinelli side body to a draft:

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The Ostinelli side body is seen in diagram 8. You can clearly see on diagram 6 how you have gained an extra seam by which to suppress the waist, but how this is cleverly hidden under the armscye.

However, there is a problem with opening up the front dart by folding the front of armscye at point B: it crookens the neckpoint. When the front dart is closed it even further crookens the balance.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#4 Sator

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 11:24 PM

I am sure you have seen this before but here is a discussion on lounge coat darts from Whife:

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What is missing from this discussion is the actual relationship between these two ways of darting a coat. Take style A with the extended front dart.

1. Extend the underarm seam to the hem as shown in red
2. Cut through the side pocket as shown in red

The draft now looks like this:

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Now close off the front dart at the hem (pinch the gap closed between points 2 and 3). Now the draft is the same as style B.

What this shows, is that darting styles A and B differ only by a matter of seam displacement. The difference between style A and B is that style A has a seam that will be unsightly unless there are patch pockets to help hide it. This makes it very hard to justify this sort of thing:

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Not only does the lack of a patch pocket make the front cut obvious, the disruption to the pattern matching further draws the seam to our attention. It would be much better if this were displaced to the underarm seam.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#5 Sator

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 12:06 AM

The most basic meaning of drape is ease. Cuts such as Whife's style A and B produce more chest effect, and so are often called drape cuts. The reason for this is two-fold. Firstly, it allows the cutter to infuse more chest drape into a coat without it becoming boxy or baggy. That is, you can increase the amount of chest ease while still getting distortion free waist suppression. This effect is incorporated into Rundschau cuts from the 1950s onwards, which can quite safely be called drape cuts.

Attempts have been made to increase the amount of chest ease without recourse to cutting with a side body or extended front dart. The trouble is that coats in this style are prone to developing distortion when you attempt to infuse waist suppression. One way around this is to learn to love the folds that form by cutting and working up the coat so that these folds are organised into neat vertical folds of excess that are placed at the front and back of armscye. A potential defect is turned into a unique aesthetic feature. Care must be taken so that these folds do not fragment into a series of messy little drags or steal off on an angle.

A good example of this type of coat is this:

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The difficulty is that the absence of an underarm dart places a terrible burden of waist suppression on the remaining seams. The front dart has been enlarged slightly to about 1/2" (maximum of 5/8") and extended to a little below the side pockets. The position of the front dart helps to place the fullness as folds of excess at the front of armscye, as well as making the front dart less visible.

It would be preferable to have an extra underarm dart like this:

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You would only be able gain about 1 cm (3/8") from the underarm dart, but it would reduce the boxiness of the coat a little and make the cut cleaner.

Another way of darting this style of coat is this:

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The front dart is moved to a more conventional position. A second underarm dart is placed in its usual location but is not cut through either at top or bottom. However, this style of darting limits the amount of waist suppression you can get without severe distortion. It also produces a rather skirty coat without any means of being able to readily control this.

The other objection is that not extending the underarm dart into the armscye partially prevents you from undertaking ironwork on the waist suppression at underarm seam like this:

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Note the "step" at the top of underarm seam. The lengths of the seams will be the same once the ironwork is complete. This helps to reduce the distortion from the waist suppression here.

To reduce the distortion from increasing the waist suppression from the underarm dart, you can also cut it through to the hem:

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However, what you gain from this over just having a side body becomes highly obscure.

Some feel that the avoidance of a cut through front cut or a side body improves pattern matching. However, it becomes very hard to achieve waist suppression without creating potentially unacceptable distortion. It seems too high a price a price to sacrifice distortion free clean fits for a bit of pattern matching.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#6 Sator

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 12:27 AM

The Morris 19th Ed Pocket Cutter's Practical Guide (CPG) on how to introduce the front cut for a draped effect:

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The option of the cut through underarm seam is not discussed at all.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#7 Sator

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 12:00 AM

Is the Side Body Necessary?

One of the more frequently discussed topics on the forum is whether a lounge coat should be cut with a side body or not (or cut cut-through front dart, which as we saw above, is just a variant of this and we can consider to be the same thing). The answer to this question is that it depends on the amount of drop from chest to waist. If the drop is large, then you need a side body. If the drop is small then it is not needed.

To put it another way, a side body is needed if stronger waist suppression is required. The reasons why a coat may need a more pronounced drop are as follows:

1. The figure has a small waist relative to a well developed chest eg athletic figures, women
2. The coat has been given extra chest ease/drape, but the drape is not to be extended to the waist (chest drape without a draped waist)

In the first instance, it is much more obvious that extra darts may be called for, unless of course a boxier cut or a style with a draped waist is desired. In the second instance, it is important to look to see how much ease has been given to the chest.

With this, it should become clear why in the 1950s, Whife's T&C lounge coat system has the default configuration set with a draft without a side body, and why, by way of comparison, the equivalent Rundschau drafts of the same period sets the default configuration with a side body.

This is what Whife says in MTOC 1949 (what he says applies to his 1950s lounge draft in A First Course in Gentlemen's Garment Cutting):

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The fashion of this period was for a lounge coat with only moderate waist suppression. This meant that in Whife's draft of this era, the amount of drop from chest waist was modest, especially when you consider how little chest ease Whife infuses into the default lounge coat draft. That means that for proportionate male figures (not female or athletic figures), the darting of the lounge coat without a side body is sufficient to achieve distortion free waist suppression.

However, the Rundschau system of the 1950s has a huge amount of chest drape by default compared to Whife. It no longer becomes possible to suppress the waist without splitting off a side body, and opening up the front dart.

Chest Drape T&C vs Rundschau

I thought I would do a comparison of the amounts of relative chest ease for a 1950s RS and a T&C draft of the same decade, using a 38" or 96.5 cm chest as a reference. I am measuring nett 1/2 chest ease from centre back to button stand, with seam allowances removed.

T&C 1/2 Chest Ease (Whife: A First Course 1950s)

Chest ease from 1-20: half chest measure plus 2 3/4" (no seam at centre back)

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This means that the nett chest ease less 5 x 1/4" seams = 2 3/4 - 1 1/4 = 1 1/2" or 3.81 cm

Rundschau 1950s 1/2 Chest Ease (Zuschnitt XVI late 1950s)

Across back = 2/10 chest + 1 cm + 1.5 cm = 2/96.5 + 1 + 1.5 = 21.8 cm
R-Rb = 2/10 chest + 1 cm
Then Rb-r is 1.5 cm (at this time this distance was ill defined, but a few years later they set this distance at 1.5 cm)

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Width of armscye = 1/8 chest + 3.5 cm = 15.56 cm

Width of chest = 2/10 chest + 3.5 to 4 cm = 22.8 to 23.3 cm (say 23 cm)

Total 1/2 chest = 21.8 + 15.56 + 23 = 60.36 cm
1/2 chest nett ease less 6 x 7.5 mm seams = 60.36 - 48.25 - 4.5 = 7.61 cm

In summary for a 38" or 96.5 cm chest
1/2 chest nett ease T&C = 3.81 cm
1/2 chest nett ease RS = 7.61 cm
Difference = 3.8 cm (or 1 1/2")

The RS draft has twice the amount of chest ease as the T&C of the same period. The difference between them is huge - a whole 1 1/2"!!! Once you have this much chest ease, then the lounge coat has to have a side body to avoid excessive boxiness.

In conclusion, the answer to the question of whether a separate side body is needed is: it depends on how much chest ease there is, and how much waist suppression is required.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#8 Sator

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 12:22 AM

Next let's look carefully once again at what Whife says about cutting a side body (or cut-through front dart) in MTOC 1949. In particular, I draw your attention to the following passage:

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Essentially, Whife is saying the same thing as the Rundschau authors in this thread. Instead of the drape forming neat vertical folds at the scye, it tends to either fragment into a whole series of messy wrinkles or steal off on an angle towards the armscye to form "diagonal drags".

We have looked at this sort underarm dart that stops short of the armscye above. The problem with this type of dart is that it increases the width of chest by two seams (1/2" or 1 1/4 cm). This in turn increases the amount of 1/2 chest ease by 1/2" as well. If you increase the across back or chest measures as well, you can end up increasing the amount of chest ease considerably. All you have to do is add 1/2" of extra chest drape at both the across back as well as across chest and you have the same amount of chest ease as a 1950s Rundschau.

The problem is now that, as Whife states, it becomes increasingly more difficult to get distortion free waist suppression without cutting a side body (or cutting through the front dart). The waist suppression causes the extra chest ease to go all sorts of places where it is not meant to be or form messy drags. My feeling is that when you are dealing with soft modern cloths, this tendency becomes even worse, which makes making up drape coats using early to mid-20th century methods of cutting without a side body even trickier.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#9 Sator

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 12:37 AM

Now that we have looked at what Whife and Rundschau have to say about the darting of coats with extra chest drape, let's now turn to Reuben Sytner. This is what Sytner says:

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Note that he says that with coats with extra chest drape at the back along with stronger waist suppression the fault of messy diagonal drags forming appears with "great regularity". He mentions that a cutter had approached him for advice who had noted that diagonal drags occurred "invariably" when drape/ease was added to both across back and across chest.

So, in effect, Whife, Styner and Rundschau are completely in agreement with each other on this matter: if you increase the chest ease without distortion and you still want waist suppression, you need a side body (or cut through front dart).
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#10 Sator

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 01:29 AM

Next, let's look to see if we can see why the 1970 Chaudhry T&C draft has a side body. For a start, we all know that the fashion of the 1970s was for a far more waisted look than what was fashionable in the 1950s.

The Chaudhry T&C draft:

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1-X = 1/2" of back drape
X-24 = 1/2 chest + 3 1/2"
Seam allowance = 3/8"

For a 38" chest the total amount of chest ease = 3 1/2"
Less 6 x 3/8" seams = 3 1/2 - 1 1/4" = 2 1/4" = 5.7 cm

In Summary

For a 38" or 96.5 cm chest:
1/2 chest nett ease T&C Whife 1950s = 3.81 cm
1/2 chest nett ease T&C Chaudhry 1970 = 5.7 cm
1/2 chest nett ease RS 1950s = 7.61 cm

The Chaudhry T&C draft has 3/4" or 2 cm more chest ease compared to Whife. This makes it important to add the side body to get adequate waist suppression.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#11 Sator

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 01:42 AM

Next, for the sake of completeness I thought I would add another data point - this time going back in time to William D.F. Vincent's time:

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The chest = 1/2 chest + 2 1/2"

The nett ease in the 1/2 chest for a 38" chest = 2 1/2 minus 6 x 1/4" seam = 2 1/2 - 1 1/4 = 1 1/4" or 3.175 cm

In Summary

For a 38" or 96.5 cm chest:
1/2 chest nett ease T&C Vincent circa 1915 = 3.18 cm
1/2 chest nett ease T&C Whife 1950s = 3.81 cm
1/2 chest nett ease T&C Chaudhry 1970 = 5.7 cm
1/2 chest nett ease RS 1950s = 7.61 cm

You can perhaps partially justify the lack of a front dart on the Vincent T&C draft. The drop from chest to waist is about 1/4" smaller than the Whife and so there is a slightly less of a pressing need for a front dart to get that waist suppression. This would have been a rather uncomfortably close fitting coat with so little ease in the chest. It's a good thing they used to measure the chest over the waistcoat!
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#12 Sator

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 02:23 AM

OK, I'm on a roller - let's add another data point. This time it's a 1966 Rundschau draft.

Chest Ease for a 38" or 96.5 cm chest

Across back = 2/10 chest + 0.5 cm + 1.5cm + 1 cm = 19.3 + 0.5 + 1.5 = 21.8 cm
Width of scye = 1/8 chest + 4 cm - 1 cm = 15.1 cm
Across chest = 2/10 + 3 cm = 22.3 cm
Total 1/2 chest nett ease less 6 x 7.5 mm seams = 59.2 - 48.25 - 4.5 = 6.45 cm

There is only about 0.75 cm (about 1/4") more chest drape than the Chaudhry T&C draft.

Running Summary:

For a 38" or 96.5 cm chest:
1/2 chest nett ease T&C Vincent circa 1915 = 3.18 cm
1/2 chest nett ease T&C Whife 1950s = 3.81 cm
1/2 chest nett ease T&C Chaudhry 1970 = 5.7 cm
1/2 chest nett ease RS 1950s = 7.61 cm
1/2 chest nett ease RS 1966 = 6.45 cm
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#13 jukes

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 03:16 AM

I think you are on the wrong path with all this, a fitted, waisted jacket or coat for a man is an illusion, ie it is not achieved by cutting lumps out of the waist. It is acheived by raising the waist
and adding more flair to the hips + more. This can and has been achieved for years without drags and without a side body (if done properly) look in the Saville Row windows for proof, or see cutters like David Taub and
Matthew Farnes + others. Once again, the side body is not the be all and end all of cutting for men.
The reason the side body became common arose in the 70s when long side vents became fashionable, the side body was used to control the hip girth so the vents would sit properly.

Edited by jukes, 31 August 2011 - 03:54 AM.


#14 Sator

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 11:20 AM

I think you are on the wrong path with all this...the side body is not the be all and end all of cutting for men.


I don't understand why the focus is on me, all I am doing is repeating what Whife, Sytner, F.R. Morris, Rundschau, the Austrian Tailoring Times and to some extent also what Ostinelli tell us. It sounds like you ought to be taking up your cudgels against them not me. Neither I nor these any of these authors have ever stated anything so ridiculous that "the side body is the be all and end all of cutting". Rather I have emphasised the conclusions of the Viennese article at the start of this thread stating that both have their uses in different situations.

The reason the side body became common arose in the 70s when long side vents became fashionable, the side body was used to control the hip girth so the vents would sit properly.


There is nothing in the literature in either the English, Italian, or German language to confirm this statement. The underarm side body, the cut-through front dart, and the Ostinelli side body are all described in the published literature of the 1930s, well before side vents became fashionable. The Austrian article that opens this thread is from Vienna, August 1949 - well before the 1970s. This is a quote from the original text of the Viennese article:

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Strong Chest, Weak Waist and Seat: Diagram 5
For particularly muscularly build clients with a strong chest but weak waist and seat measures there is a need to achieve good fullness and height of chest. However, the excess width must be removed at the waist and hips. The best solution for to this oft debated issue is without question the widened front dart formed by cutting through the underarm dart to form a side body. See diagram 5.


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The literature is also clear that when this type of cut is introduced to a proportionate figure it is to provide "chest drape" or fullness/ease (ibid Whife and Styner).

see cutters like David Taub


As for Davide Taub, he often increases the number of panels rather than reducing them:

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This type of panelling is taken from ladies' cutting. However, there is also good historical evidence to suggest that the underarm side body and the cut-through front dart also come from ladies' cutting. Ladies' cutting systems included these features by default well before they were routinely incorporated into men's systems (as can be seen in the published English, American, Italian and German language literature) starting around the 1930s. This comes from Holding 1897:

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Similar panelling and cut-through front darts can be found in German ladies' systems of the late IXth century.

The reason they are required in ladies' cutting is because of the need for distortion free chest and waist emphasis - which the literature clearly states is the reason these techniques were incorporated into men's cutting.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#15 Sator

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 11:45 AM

As an aside, here is something interesting. It comes from J.P. Thornton's International System of around 1914. It is probably the earliest men's lounge coat draft I own with a side body. Note that it is entitled "Close-Fitting Lounge Coat". Thornton's standard fit lounge coat lacks the side body - he only introduces this for his close-fitting style.

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The full drafts can be found here.

The curious thing about it is that the absence of a front dart or cut-through side pocket means you lack a Donlon wedge here to help barrel the skirt (reduce excess length at the hem). The principle reason he seems to introduce it is to permit stronger distortion-free waist suppression as fish styled darts can only be enlarged so much before they cause unacceptable distortion.

Lounge coats of this period almost universally lacked vents - either centre vents or side vents. In fact, far from trying to barrel the skirt Thornton has used the cut-through underarm seam to introduce extra flare at the base of underarm seam (between points 8-7), a style feature that further emphasises the waist.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#16 jukes

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 04:11 PM

I think you are on the wrong path with all this...the side body is not the be all and end all of cutting for men.




I don't und
erstand why the focus is on me, all I am doing is repeating what Whife, Sytner, F.R. Morris, Rundschau, the Austrian Tailoring Times and to some extent also what Ostinelli tell us. It sounds like you ought to be taking up your cudgels against them not me. Neither I nor these any of these authors have ever stated anything so ridiculous that "the side body is the be all and end all of cutting". Rather I have emphasised the conclusions of the Viennese article at the start of this thread stating that both have their uses in different situations.


Anyone reading this and other threads would think this is the case
Posted Imagejukes, on 30 August 2011 - 04:16 PM, said:

The reason the side body became common arose in the 70s when long side vents became fashionable, the side body was used to control the hip girth so the vents would sit properly.


There is nothing in the literature in either the English, Italian, or German language to confirm this statement. The underarm side body, the cut-through front dart, and the Ostinelli side body are all described in the published literature of the 1930s, well before side vents became fashionable. The Austrian article that opens this thread is from Vienna, August 1949 - well before the 1970s. This is a quote from the original text of the Viennese article:



"Became common" ie was used more. Of course the side body was around before the 70s but it was not used as much for a reason. To show an example of one or two garments from certain cutters is a bit lame.
Every cutter will cut a side body when required (yes, even me) but not on every garment as you seem to advocate in your posts.




" Became common"



#17 Sator

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 06:16 PM

Every cutter will cut a side body when required (yes, even me) but not on every garment as you seem to advocate in your posts.


Where oh where did I say that????

This is what I wrote:

Is the Side Body Necessary?

One of the more frequently discussed topics on the forum is whether a lounge coat should be cut with a side body or not (or cut cut-through front dart, which as we saw above, is just a variant of this and we can consider to be the same thing). The answer to this question is that it depends on the amount of drop from chest to waist. If the drop is large, then you need a side body. If the drop is small then it is not needed.

To put it another way, a side body is needed if stronger waist suppression is required. The reasons why a coat may need a more pronounced drop are as follows:

1. The figure has a small waist relative to a well developed chest eg athletic figures, women
2. The coat has been given extra chest ease/drape, but the drape is not to be extended to the waist (chest drape without a draped waist)



Where in there did I write that "all lounge coats must have a side body". Am I writing things in my sleep that remain totally invisible to me??? On the contrary I stated that whether a coat needs a side body at all is dependent on how much waist suppression and chest drape is required. If it doesn't need a great deal, then I made it crystal clear that a side body may be superfluous. I even went on to demonstrate why the Whife standard lounge draft doesn't need it because of the modest waist suppression and minimal chest ease.

In fact, the very raison d'etre of this thread was to show that the lounge coat style without a side body still had validity in certain circumstances. It is absolutely incomprehensible to me that anyone can have read what I wrote and interpret it as an attempt to evangelise for the cause that "a side body is required on all garments". Yet you are getting a reading that is the complete opposite of what I am saying. If people think that when I say "left" it means "right", and "up" when I say "down", I am going to be totally lost for words :Black Eye:

"Became common" ie was used more. Of course the side body was around before the 70s but it was not used as much for a reason. To show an example of one or two garments from certain cutters is a bit lame.


I will list all of the publication groups and authors that show an underarm side body - it is not just one or two. Scans to back up what I am saying will be provided if required.

Thornton circa 1914: side body option shown as an option
Maurer Carré System 1930s: side body shown several times as an option
Rundschau 1930s: shown as an option
Schneidermeister Zuschnitt 1936: list this as option along with the Ostinelli side body
Whife MTOC 1949: side body shown as an option
Austrian Tailoring Times 1949: side body shown as an option incorporated into the primary draft (not added later)
Schneidermeister 1950s: side body shown as an option
Whife A First Course 1950s: side body shown as an add-on option
Leibold 1958: side body shown as an add-on option
Rundschau mid-late 1950s: side body becomes the default configuration (lounge coats without a side body disappear from publication)
DSHW 1950s: side body becomes the default configuration (lounge coats without a side body disappear from publication)
Schneidermeister 1960s: side body becomes the default configuration (lounge coats without a side body almost disappear from publication)
ASZ 1960s: side body becomes the default configuration (lounge coats without a side body almost disappear from publication)
Chaudhry T&C 1970: side body incorporated into primary draft (not added on later) for the first time in T&C history


The side body style is almost standard (or at least an extremely common option) on women's coats from around the late 19th century eg T&C 1920-30s, F.R. Morris 1940s, Dellafera 1950s, Whife 1960s, Holding 1890s, Hecklington 1895, Berlin Cutter's Academy 1900s, Devere 1860s.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#18 Sator

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 11:10 PM

Time to keep moving on.

The Viennese article that opens this thread mentions this pattern manipulation on a lounge coat without a side body:

Posted Image

A gap has been opened up at the underarm seam and the side point displaced backwards. Here is a draft by Leonard Ostling published in The Tailor & Cutter which has this feature:

Posted Image

One thing that occurred to me that was missing is the fact you can introduce a Donlon wedge into a proportionate lounge draft which lacks a side body by cutting through the side pocket. A small wedge is standard on coats with a side body but it is less commonly seen on coats without a side body - except in the American literature. This further helps to barrel the skirt (that is, it controls the flare). It is standard practice in the 1950s version of The New Mitchell System. However, Regal's American Garment Cutter explains it in more detail:

Posted Image

Posted Image
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"




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