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Of iGents and Steampunks


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#1 Sator

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 07:12 PM

We seem to get a whole hoard of bizarre Steampunks here wanting to wear their Count Orlok-Nosferatu or Count Dracula costumes. It seems that the problem with them is that if they went to a Savile Row tailor to have their costumes made up to satisfy a true Count, it would cost them a good hundred thousand dollars to bespeak a complete Victorian aristocrat's wardrobe. That being too expensive, they decide to come here to make their own.

The first thing they do when they arrive here is announce that they have figured out which finger to put the thimble on (they often make their own thimble to save on money). Next they want to learn to make a frock coat. Yes, always a frock coat and always to be finished next week. I don't know why it's has to be a frock - no, not the pretty Christian Dior or Balenciaga frock you are thinking of:

Posted Image

Rather, I am talking of a more ghastly looking Victorian Prince Albert type of frock, like the one the gentleman to the right of this cartoon is wearing:

Posted Image

When I say, "gentleman" I really mean "gentleman" in the old fashioned sense of someone with an aristocratic title - like this one who peers down contemptuously through his monocle at the lowly beggars in the street:

Posted Image

Yet, it seems that Steampunks are more akin to the these beggars in not having an aristocratic title. So, like the beggars in the cartoon, they like to put on affected airs and graces, while playing fancy dress up in their monocles and top hats. They like to live in a fantasy world where they are dressed by their valets and attended by their servants while peering down over their monocles at the rest of us lowly commoners like haughty aristocrats. Some of them also like to crap on about long outdated protocols of court dress, whether of the Tsars or at the Court of Versailles. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, the term iGent is a term that pokes fun at the way a whole hoard of guys at their keyboards in t-shirt and jeans like living in a virtual world where they are dressed by their valets and follow all sorts of Eternal Rules of Permanent Style, mostly of their own invention. They seem to like to live in a on-line fantasy world where they can pretend that they are landed and titled gentry. Instead of striving to dress like Count Orlok, they want to dress like the Duke of Windsor. For some reason, it always has to be the Duke of Windsor. Instead of wishing to wear a frock coat, they always want to wear a drape coat. For some reason, it always has to be a drape coat.

Is it any coincidence these two types, the Steampunk and iGent are so similar?

#2 Sator

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:36 PM

A very interesting documentary on the Duke of Windsor/Edward VIII entitled The UK's Nazi King Edward VIII, Duke of Windsor: Traitor & Enemy of Britain

Part I

http://www.youtube.c...?v=DON0o4XfVZI' class='bbc_url' title='' rel='nofollow'>Part II

Part III

Interestingly enough, the other name for the frock coat is the Prince Albert coat. Prince Albert was Edward VIII's German great-grandfather.

#3 carpu65

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 03:28 AM

I think that the Duke was a little ingenue and frivolous,but not a traitor.

#4 I.Brackley

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:12 PM

Yet, it seems that Steampunks are more akin to the these beggars ...in the cartoon,


Yup. True, true. Once upon a time, some years back before what one would call 'Steampunk' had been taken over by the sci-fi fantasy cos-play crowd and it instead attracted stray theatre types and artists this 'raggamuffin', runaway servant, Artful Dodger, mismatched, pawn-shopped rascal look was intentionally played up for evocative effect. When toned right down and done minimally and with subtly it could even have a quiant "young fogeyish" charm.
These days the genuinely creative types have moved on and what's left is mostly just cos-play types dressing badly, working with what they can thrift but without any taste, artistic vision or the first notion of composition, colour theory, etc.
Never mind 'rules of dress' or even knowledge of fashion history.

Is it any coincidence these two types, the Steampunk and iGent are so similar?


Other than working on Sator's nerves and having the internet amplify the appearance of their numbers, I don't see much of a similarity. The present "steampunk" aspires only to a costume that will be worn against an ambience of other costumes at the consumer/marketing orgies of Comicon et al.
The iGent covets clothing. Perhaps clothing he will never own or even have a need for but clothing that could, for the most part, conceivably be worn everyday (real exotica like frocks or dress breeches being obvious exceptions) without having quite the Duke of Windsor's lifestyle.
"The possibilities that exist in the portrayal of personality constitute the strongest, and in fact the only unanswerable argument for the supremacy of Custom Tailoring"

-F.T. Croonborg, c. 1917

#5 Sator

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 08:24 PM

The Duke meets the Count:

Posted Image

Is it a coincidence that Count Orlok is wearing a single breasted frock coat named after the Duke of Windsor's great-grandfather - Prince Albert? Is it any more of a coincidence that these punks frocked up all in frightful black are sometimes mistaken for Neo-Nazi? Personally, I find both the Duke's drape coat and Count's Prince Albert to be equally hideous period costumes.

As for the Duke's political sympathies, here is what he said to Fulton Oursler from Liberty magazine in the US in 1940, well after Britain had declared war on Germany:

http://www.deseretne...AID-HITLER.html

"Hitler, he said, was the right and logical leader of the German people . . . He regarded Hitler as a great man" Oursler wrote.

The Duke told Oursler that the war was "between two very stubborn peoples" and suggested that Roosevelt soon would have to act as a mediator between Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Hitler, telling them that "you two boys have fought long enough and now you have to kiss and make up."

"Tell Mr. Roosevelt that if he will make an offer of intervention of peace, that before any one in England can oppose it, the Duke of Windsor will instantly issue a statement supporting it and that will start a revolution in England and force peace," the Duke's aide told Oursler.


This was Fulton Oursler's final conclusion:

"Did the Duke harbor hopes that such a revolution would restore him to the throne? The question seems almost irrelevant. By sending his plea to the President, he had already stepped beyond the bounds of diplomacy and trespassed on treason."


I think it is high time to stop fawning over the Eternal Style of the supposed dandy Duke. I really don't think it is appropriate.

#6 carpu65

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 02:12 AM

they want to dress like the Duke of Windsor. For some reason, it always has to be the Duke of Windsor. Instead of wishing to wear a frock coat, they always want to wear a drape coat. For some reason, it always has to be a drape coat.

.... I find both the Duke's drape coat and Count's Prince Albert to be equally hideous period costumes.


Well, we have many type of Igents.
Many,is true,look to the Duke of Windsor and at the iconic character of the British gentleman,but a lot are on the American Ivy League side,and their heroes are the east coast Wasps and the college students of the good old days.
For many others the promise land is Italy,with "sprezzatura" and "spalla camicia",Rubinacci and Ambrosi.
Others love the 60s and the Mods and "Mad Men" look.

In any way the fun thing is that if Duke of Windor is so beloved,is also very little imitated.
Nothing wants the Duke's double breasted style (that honestly is an interesting style),namely the four buttons (all working) with only the last couple buttoned.
I think that a double breasted in this style can be modern and fresh,
but I have never see a coat like this in the IGents pictures.

Posted Image

As for the Duke's political sympathies, here is what he said to Fulton Oursler from Liberty magazine in the US:
http://www.deseretne...AID-HITLER.html
[indent=1]"Hitler, he said, was the right and logical leader of the German people . . . He regarded Hitler as a great man" Oursler wrote.


Benito Mussolini had "rendered a service to the whole world", showing "a way to combat subversive forces".

"One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement".

[i]"the schemes of the International Jews", "this sinister confederacy"(Writing of Bolshevism and Zionism)


Who said this?
Winston Churcill.
Was Winston Churcill a fascist? a nazist? an antisemite?
No, simply was a man of his time,member of the British establishment.
The Duke of Windsor was a "nazi and a traitor" in the same way that his uncle,the poor Duke of Clarence,was Jack the ripper,and his nephew ,the Prince Charles, have killed the wife.

#7 Sator

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 11:39 AM

"One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement".

Was Winston Churcill a fascist? a nazist?


No, unlike the Duke of Windsor who was clearly pro-Nazi and pro-fascist. Even the BBC says as much:

The Duke is believed to have been sympathetic to the Nazis.


http://news.bbc.co.u...news/661966.stm

The BBC also report the Duke as having said this while in the Bahamas:

"After the war is over and Hitler will crush the Americans...We'll take over...They (the British) don't want me as their King, but I'll be back as their leader."


http://news.bbc.co.u...ews/2701965.stm

A lot of the upper class establishment in Britain were fascists:

Posted Image

As for Churchill, he threatened to court marshal the Duke if he did not leave France after the fall of Paris. Instead of heading straight back to Britain he went partying in fascist Spain with his Nazi pals there. Churchill was so outraged that he had the Duke banished to the Bahamas. It is highly likely that the Nazis had promised to reinstate the Duke as the King (or perhaps even as their Leader) once they had taken over Britain. He obviously wanted to go from il Duke to il Duce.

#8 carpu65

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 03:02 AM

No, unlike the Duke of Windsor who was clearly pro-Nazi and pro-fascist. Even the BBC says as much:


I fear that was more stupid that "traitor".
Probably he not understand what was really nazism.
On the other hand one that choose Scholte as tailor not can be much inteligent.


The BBC also report the Duke as having said this while in the Bahamas:


And this show how much silly he was.
"suggested that Roosevelt soon would have to act as a mediator
between Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Hitler"
(!!!!!); only a stupid can said these things!



A lot of the upper class establishment in Britain were fascists:

In 20s and 30s a lot of Western world upper and middle class was fascist.
The problem is that fascism not was what they believed.
Was uncontrollable.
Fascism can be a very uncomfortable and annoying thing: a Mussolini slogan was "Noi non vogliamo la vita comoda" ("We do not want a comfortable life").
Hell,one can only be antifascist!!


As for Churchill, he threatened to court marshal the Duke if he did not leave France after the fall of Paris. Instead of heading straight back to Britain he went partying in fascist Spain with his Nazi pals there. Churchill was so outraged that he had the Duke banished to the Bahamas. It is highly likely that the Nazis had promised to reinstate the Duke as the King (or perhaps even as their Leader) once they had taken over Britain. He obviously wanted to go from il Duke to il Duce.


Churcill at the end understood who were Hitler and Mussolini.
But Sir Winston was an inteligent man,the Duke not.
But between be stupid and be traitor is a difference.

#9 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 05:45 AM

The iGent's definition of being an iGent:

There's a lot of confusion about this, and I wanted to see if i could clear some of it up. It will no doubt take more than one post and I welcome others to weigh in as necessary.

Rather than provide an all-ecompassing definition, which in the past has proved difficult, I thought I would just run through some of the touchstones.

First, the shoulders. This is the iGent's ne plus ultra characteristic. There can be no padding. A little extension is fine, as is no extension. Drape in the chest (highlighed) is essential.
...

Note the knit tie. Another hallmark of the iGent is succumbing to groupthink. Also, a classic square from H&H (unicorns), with a border. Nothing newfangled, ever, for the iGent. Note also the texture mixing (silk tie, wool square) and the fact that the square matches nothing, espeically not the tie, but picks up a little of everything.

iGents also wear coats with high buttoning points. And the preferred stance is 3 roll 2. Not the top buttonhole (highlighted). Note also the patch breast pocket (optional) with a swelled edge (mandatary for patch pockets).
...

iGents cannot leave the house without wearing something from Napoli. It's like going out with no green on St. Patrick's Day. Except instead of getting pinched, your iGent card will be revoked. In this case the trousers (Ambrosi) and the tie (Buonnano) are from Naples. Extra points if at least one item is not from one of the more recognized Neapolitan brands.
...

iGents also, whenever possible, wear bandaid-colored shoes. This is not always possible. But when it is, and an iGent fails to wear them, he goes on iGent probation.
...

There's a lot more to it than this, but that is a basic primer that should kick off the discussion.


;)

http://www.styleforu...-igent-handbook

I find it funny that the Duke would go on to live in the USA, given his background as a Nazi supporter. At a second thought, maybe not!:spiteful:
What still baffles me is the fact that none of the other, then much more powerful states around Germany, did intervene when Hitler rose to power. It was dead obvious what that little Austrian dude had in mind.

Many tailoring companies make big money with the iGents™, not just those in Naples, and given the state of the tailoring trade as it is right now, I must say it's not such a bad thing. The main problem I have with those posting and praising their new bespoke clothes (and themselves) is their attitude towards those who dare to disagree.
Some of those who visit a bespoke tailor regularly are quite knowledgeable while others just pick up little pieces and repeat them each and everywhere.
The perfect iGent™ suit would look like this:

Drape style coat with barchetta breast pocket, extended front dart, sleeves with a very wide crown and preferably a manica camicia (gathered width before and after the shoulder seam), no pads in the shoulders.
Trousers would have to be of a very slim cut, high cuffs at the hem and therefore a bit on the short side.

What I have seen posted in pictures are: Boxy coats (at chest level), some strange attemts to taper the waist, which, along with the use of the extended front dart lead to what is known as "open quarters", which are actually mostly just a lack of width around the seat, causing the fronts to gape, big style.Posted Image And lets not forget the symmetrical cut of the coat (for easier and better pattern matching, no matter if the wearer has a lower shoulder and since the rule is "no padding") which sometimes causes the coat to break in at the lower side.

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#10 carpu65

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 06:13 AM

The perfect iGent™ suit would look like this:

Drape style coat with barchetta breast pocket, extended front dart, sleeves with a very wide crown and preferably a manica camicia (gathered width before and after the shoulder seam), no pads in the shoulders.
Trousers would have to be of a very slim cut, high cuffs at the hem and therefore a bit on the short side.


Remember a little this that Rubinacci have cut for Lapo Elkan (The Duke of Igents?)

He is wearing one of our last creations that we made for him, a beautiful grey vintage Prince of Wales 11 oz Linen.
We made it in double breasted 6 buttons, patch pockets with double stiching, the trousers with high belt and side adjustments, no pleats and jeans pockets.

As Vogue define’s him a gentleman, i can say he’s very cool too
!!!


Posted Image

Posted Image

(not bad...Ehi! and if is this the "suit of tomorrow"?)

What I have seen posted in pictures are: Boxy coats (at chest level), some strange attemts to taper the waist


Sincerly i don't see many Igents with these boxy "Windsor" coats.

Edited by carpu65, 01 October 2011 - 06:16 AM.


#11 Sator

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 09:17 AM

Churcill at the end understood who were Hitler and Mussolini.
But Sir Winston was an inteligent man,the Duke not.
But between be stupid and be traitor is a difference.


I am not so sure that in making himself a friend of Il Duce et alia, our Il Duke was that stupid. He urged that Roosevelt make Hitler and Churchill "kiss and make up"!!! This is very much in keeping with what the German American Bund were urging Washington to do at the time:

Posted Image

Here is Charles Lindberg attending a Nazi party meeting in Berlin 1935:

Posted Image

Posted Image

And the Duke was married Wallace, another American Nazi supporter. If is very clear that the reason Home Office opposed their marriage was because of her Nazi associations. Instead of choosing Britain, Il Duke chose Nazism. He knew exactly what he was doing.

#12 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 03:40 PM

Sincerly i don't see many Igents with these boxy "Windsor" coats

.

Well, there are actually two groups: One with the boxy versions (like iammatt and mafoofan and also Manton), and then there are those where the tailors attempted a more close fitting version and, in my opinion, failed miserably (have a closer look at Lapo's suits!).
It seems that some tailors (especially the most praised ones) put their signature elements in a coat even if not possible. Seems to me that they are not very versatile.
The problem with disproportionate figures (wide hips) and the standard A&S/ Italian cut is that it's tricky to apply a lot of waist suppression without a sidebody.
Two of the most prominent iGents™ in recent times, whnay and Manton, had coats/ suits made up by A&S (both) and some Naples tailors (in whnay's case Rubinacci, in Manton's Sollito and Napoli su misura).
All A&S coats were a complete disaster, so are whnay's Rubinacci suits while Mantons suits from Naples are really nice.

I think that one key element of being an iGent™ is to be always right (perhaps even in a political sense), no matter what!:spiteful:

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#13 carpu65

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 10:08 AM

Il Duke chose Nazism. He knew exactly what he was doing.


I respect your opinion,but personally think that the Duke not understand much about the real nature of nazism.
For he was simply a political system perfect for bizarre foreign,and a good way for fight the communism.
Many at the times believed these rubbish things.
Add that the man not was certainly a genius..... :rolleyes:

Well, there are actually two groups: One with the boxy versions (like iammatt and mafoofan and also Manton)



But Mafoofan not seems so boxy.
I have the suspect that Mariano Rubinacci has entrusted he at second class cutter (cutters at Rubinacci are several)
But the suits not seems so boxy.

Posted Image

Edited by carpu65, 02 October 2011 - 10:13 AM.


#14 Schneidergott

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 05:25 PM

Where do the Royals still go to school and university?:spiteful:

Personally, I belive that the only reason that American "gold digger" he later married only had a chance because she looked like the Duke's sister in law:

Posted Image Posted Image

In this case, the Duke had lost.:spiteful:

Da "Foo" is not completely filling out his coats, plus you can see that the cutter did not correct his lower right shoulder, that's why the right side breaks in under the arm. And he gets fitted by Mariano...Posted Image

The man who created this:

Posted Image

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#15 carpu65

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 11:48 PM

Napoleonoic uniform?
Anyway, maybe one day we should talk about the difference between the coats that come out from the Rubinacci's ateliers.
For exemple, this:

Posted Image

Is different from this:

Posted Image

and this:

Posted Image

Too many cutters (and different classes of customers)? :angel:

#16 Schneidergott

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 12:20 AM

The pinstripe coat is very well cut, at least on the tailor's dummy it doesn't show many distortions, plus, unlike with the others, there is no extended front dart, only a fish dart. So there must have been a time when that extended dart wasn't a must have feature, no matter what.
The trouble with the other ones is that by attempting to get a tapered waist they also got it too tight around the hips (mildly caused by the e.d.® )

What is disturbing is the fact that customers of the 2 most "famous" drape cut houses show the pictures of themselves with either J.H. or the Rubinaccis like they were some sort of trophy or achievement.

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#17 carpu65

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 01:00 AM

there is no extended front dart, only a fish dart. So there must have been a time when that extended dart wasn't a must have feature, no matter what.


All three coats are modern,cut at London House in the last three-four years.

#18 hymo

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 01:19 AM

Wow, I get it now. This place is like FNB's forum. Is it actually fun for you guys to trash the garments of those who are enthusiastic about bespoke tailoring and who have done more to keep it alive (by generating demand for it) than any of you? Your so-called iGents are customers, and you people seem to enjoy ridiculing them and their tailors. Where did you people get this chip on your shoulders from?

I, for one, was very inspired by the likes of Foo and Manton and whnay. Their enthusiam was infectious. The pictures they posted of their fitting sessions and the Neapolitan food and scenery were uplifting and enlightening.

A lot of what was criticized here were concepts popularized by people like Michael Alden and Will Boelke. These are gents who genuinely liked to see people dress better. They have done more to popularize tailored clothes than any of you "professionals".

Edited by hymo, 05 October 2011 - 02:15 AM.

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