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Of iGents and Steampunks


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#19 Schneidergott

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 04:57 AM

iGents only favour one style and it's them who praise their style to be superior to all others.

I don't know about others, but my problem with that attitude is that they praise their style and tailors even though the latter have often failed to deliver a well fitted garment.

Yes, they have created some sort of hype around Neapolitan or drape style in general, but lets face it: How many of those reading their essays and admiring the pictures about their visits to Napoli can afford to go there and have clothes made? Plus, if they want to keep bespoke tailoring alive, why not buy locally?

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#20 jukes

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 05:09 AM

Its a tailors forum, you will find that privately tailors will say exactly the same as written here, the people you mention have done a lot for the trade and i am sure all in the trade appreciate it. We are mostly a critical bunch. Criticism can be a good thing it tends to make most tradesmen strive to do better for fear of being on the receiving end. I also agree that it does tend to go to far on here sometimes, especially where Saville Row is concerned for some reason.

#21 carpu65

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 02:12 AM

Wow, I get it now. This place is like FNB's forum.


I not agree,the level of discussion in this forum is for the most on techniques topics and on history and present of sartorial art.
But i perfectly agree about the need to leave discussion and criticism on Igents out of here.

Edited by carpu65, 06 October 2011 - 02:13 AM.


#22 Sator

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 09:36 AM

I don't think a single criticism of any tailor or person was made by me. The only rightful objection raised was that the constant fawning over the Duke of Windsor is highly inappropriate given his clearly documented personal Nazi sympathies - something for which solid historical and objective evidence was given. Even the BBC clearly state as much about the Duke.

If there is anything inappropriate it is the accusation that raising the Nazi past of the Duke of Windsor, and the questioning of whether it is right to continue to fawn over his style of dress, is driven by some sort petty conspiratorial motive to defame or attack other people.

#23 Sator

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 10:57 AM

Your so-called iGents are customers, and you people seem to enjoy ridiculing them and their tailors. Where did you people get this chip on your shoulders from?


Weren't you the one who was wanting to put Nazi era Kriegsmarine buttons on your blazer? It sounds like a Scholte drape coat would be the perfect garment for your buttons. As for displaying Nazi era regalia for "fun", this is something Goths and Steampunks love to do: the iGent-Steampunk link is completed.

And here is the final point of my thread: old garments carry baggage. You cannot wear a frock coat around town without looking like your are affecting to pretend to be an old aristocrat peering down through your monocle at us petty commoners. You cannot fawn over the Duke of Windsor without people wondering if you are a Neo-Fascist and Nazi apologist.

#24 CoronarJunkee

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:41 PM

You cannot fawn over the Duke of Windsor without people wondering if you are a Neo-Fascist and Nazi apologist.


This is maybe a bit exaggerated. How many people do know about the Duke of Windsor's political inclinations? What they first see, I suppose, is his looks and his charisma. That's what they are after. It's not like they are taking Himmler or Hitler himself as a style icon.
Hugo Boss has a very heavy Nazi past. That doesn't keep anyone from wearing the brand today...

#25 Artist's Eye

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 04:43 PM

This is maybe a bit exaggerated. How many people do know about the Duke of Windsor's political inclinations? What they first see, I suppose, is his looks and his charisma. That's what they are after. It's not like they are taking Himmler or Hitler himself as a style icon.
Hugo Boss has a very heavy Nazi past. That doesn't keep anyone from wearing the brand today...


I mostly agree with what you say about the Duke of Windsor, but I have read the claims of one or two people online that they don't buy Hugo Boss suits because of their Nazi history.

#26 hymo

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:45 PM

Weren't you the one who was wanting to put Nazi era Kriegsmarine buttons on your blazer? It sounds like a Scholte drape coat would be the perfect garment for your buttons. As for displaying Nazi era regalia for "fun", this is something Goths and Steampunks love to do: the iGent-Steampunk link is completed.

And here is the final point of my thread: old garments carry baggage. You cannot wear a frock coat around town without looking like your are affecting to pretend to be an old aristocrat peering down through your monocle at us petty commoners. You cannot fawn over the Duke of Windsor without people wondering if you are a Neo-Fascist and Nazi apologist.

My Kriegsmarine buttons were from the Weimarer Republik era. Nazi era stuff are prohibited from sale in Germany.
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#27 hymo

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:57 PM

I also have trouble understanding why I've been relegated to the category of iGent. I spent the better part of this year making up a trial garment. I learnt to draft by the Müller & Sohn method. I made up the trial garment using Cabrera's methods. I am now apprenticed to a coatmaker. All this and I am still an iGent?

How does one qualify to NOT be an iGent? I just want to be regarded as a normal human being on this forum.

Edited by hymo, 07 October 2011 - 07:58 PM.

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#28 CoronarJunkee

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 07:08 AM

I mostly agree with what you say about the Duke of Windsor, but I have read the claims of one or two people online that they don't buy Hugo Boss suits because of their Nazi history.


Yes. I agree. And I know people like this in real life.
I think it's just not widely spread not to wear a certain type/style of garment because a) a brand that makes these garments has a doubtful political past or b) certain people in history with doubtful political inclinations have worn the same type/style of garment.
It's a bit like saying every woman wearing navy blue or dark green jackets is a Thatcher-venerater...

#29 Sator

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 11:53 AM

How does one qualify to NOT be an iGent?


How about by not insinuating that sharp criticism of the excessive fawning over the Duke of Windsor is a disguised attack on certain tailors or individuals. I find that a distasteful defence of the well known and thoroughly documented Nazi associations of the Duke.

#30 Sator

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 12:14 PM

Hugo Boss was a Nazi party member and supplied the party with uniforms, however it is now a public listed company and any present day direct ties with its namesake founder or his family are pretty tenuous. IBM also supplied the Nazis with the information filing systems necessary to sort out where political prisoners would go where eg Jews to camps.

However, the Duke of Windsor even as recently as 1970 stated in an interview that "I didn't think Hitler was such a bad chap".

The Nazis thought he was “no enemy to Germany” and would be the “logical director of England’s destiny after the war”. He had almost certainly been pre-chosen to be the Leader (il Duce/der Führer) of a fascist Britain. Or to quote the Duke himself:

"After the war is over and Hitler will crush the Americans...We'll take over...They don't want me as their King, but I'll be back as their Leader."

This link to fascism can hardly be called tenuous. This makes Windsor the leading British fascist alongside Sir Oswald Mosley:

Posted Image

Mosley never killed anyone either, but does this make it PC to fawn over his "beautiful drape coat" as an example of Permanent Style?

Posted Image

#31 Sator

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 01:31 PM

I should also add that it is very easy to empathise (if not sympathise) where Windsor was coming from. Take a look at this:

Posted Image

Tsar Nicholas II and George V look like identical twins. They are relatives after all. When the Bolsheviks took over, they murdered a large number of Windsor's relatives. The Duke of Edinburgh recently said of the Communists that "the bastards murdered half my family". Part of the support amongst the British upper classes for fascism came from a hatred for Communism, and a desire to avenge their murdered Romanov relatives. The Nazis were the most vitriolic anti-Bolshevik political force in the 1930s, and it is not surprising then that a large proportion of the British upper class supported them. This explains why, in the middle of WWII, Windsor wanted Churchill and Hitler to "kiss and make up": to join forces in a battle to exterminate Bolshevism, and avenge the murdered Romanovs.

From Windsor's point of view, he almost certainly also saw it as an opportunity for the Royal Family to regain real and meaningful political power, rather than remaining an impotent symbolic head of state. The fact that Windsor made blatant political statements, flagrantly in contradiction to the British government to a degree unthinkable from the Royal Family today, reveals a keen political mind - and not naive in the slightest degree. The only naive thing about Windsor was his belief that it was only a matter of time before Hitler deposed the British government, and that he would be redeemed from his shameful place as the Governor of the Bahamas to be reinstated as the Leader of Fascist Britain.

#32 tailleuse

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 01:43 PM

I think it is high time to stop fawning over the Eternal Style of the supposed dandy Duke. I really don't think it is appropriate.


Could you throw in Wallace Simpson as a freebie? I've never understood the Wallace worship, either. She was a sour-looking clothes horse. I assume she had charm in person; it is not communicated in her photos.

One of the (many) reasons I can't take fashion completely seriously is the lack of moral compass. The people who follow it are often frivolous and stupid.

If you want to see a hilarious portrait of the Duke of Windsor and Simpson in a fictional work, I recommend Any Human Heart by William Boyd. I saw the adaptation in February. http://www.pbs.org/w...eart/index.html

Edited by tailleuse, 08 October 2011 - 01:57 PM.

Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#33 Sator

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 02:30 PM

Could you throw in Wallace Simpson as a freebie?


Definitely. I imagine that as the American who nearly became Queen of the British Empire, she would be the subject of much fawning admiration as a Style Queen. Then there is that Romantic slop about how the King gave up his Empire out of Love for her blah blah.

Yuck.

#34 carpu65

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 08:29 AM

You cannot fawn over the Duke of Windsor without people wondering if you are a Neo-Fascist and Nazi apologist.


This also applies to the 1920s Prince of Wales period?
Is before that "mad eyes" Schikelgruber take the power.
In that time David Windsor was mostly a Florenz Ziegfeld Follies apologist.

#35 tailleuse

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 11:04 AM

This also applies to the 1920s Prince of Wales period?
Is before that "mad eyes" Schikelgruber take the power.
In that time David Windsor was mostly a Florenz Ziegfeld Follies apologist.



Schicklgruber.


Old American saying in regard to journalists:
"Write whatever you want about me as long as you spell my name right. "Posted Image

Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#36 tailleuse

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 11:11 AM

Definitely. I imagine that as the American who nearly became Queen of the British Empire, she would be the subject of much fawning admiration as a Style Queen. Then there is that Romantic slop about how the King gave up his Empire out of Love for her blah blah.

Yuck.


She IS a style queen, at least among people who know who Diana Vreeland was. (I recently had to explain who she was, and as I've said umpteen times, I'm not a fashionista -- I don't think every blip in the fashion world is fascinating.)

I remember a documentary that was made at least a decade ago in which a prominent Englishman said that many people of the era could not get over the King of England going on the radio and using the language of a women's romance magazine.

I still wonder what was going on in that relationship. Many accounts I've heard or read said that Wallace Simpson offered to break off the engagement because she didn't want the responsibility of Edward's (I believe he was called "David" by his friends) loosing everything because of her but he insisted. I also didn't know until a few years ago that his brother, Bertie, had to fund an allowance for him from his own money.



Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)





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