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Of iGents and Steampunks


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#73 carpu65

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 07:27 AM

And the answer is.....?

#74 culverwood

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 09:41 PM

It is mid summer in Oz, time for holidays. I suggest he is sitting on his yacht sipping a Dry Martini.

#75 Cormac

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 10:49 AM

Is a some time that Sator don't writes on forum...this announcement is has become effective? :sorry:


Oh, I hope not! I just got here after admiring Sator's work in other forums. He has truly inspired and educated me.

#76 Cormac

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:28 AM

I still don't understand what an i-Gent is...


Well, based on the thread, it seems to me it is someone who is into an alternative lifestyle subculture that promotes clothes and dress rules that are a pastiche of shallow historical references, fantasy, anachronisms, historical fiction, and outdated totems of class privilege. Also, the key objection to them appears to be that they (belligerently) claim historical accuracy or authority for their role-playing escapism, blurring the line between their fantasy and real life history and spreading all kinds of pernicious myths. (Of course, I could be projecting that key objection for others, since it is what annoys me about them.)

Sator has drawn analogies with the fan sub-cultures spawned by "Steampunk" sci/fi-fantasy fiction and "Goth" rock music, arguing that these folks are essentially engaging in a form of public "cosplay" that often subverts serious discussion of both men's tailoring and fashion history.

At least, that's what I got from it.

(Oh, also, the Duke of Windsor - an icon of the igentry - was a superficial, frivolous devotee of fascism and a traitor to his country. I'm not sure that's relevant to your question, but it is certainly historically true. ;) )

Edited by Cormac, 05 January 2012 - 11:29 AM.


#77 ladhrann

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 02:54 PM

Well, based on the thread, it seems to me it is someone who is into an alternative lifestyle subculture that promotes clothes and dress rules that are a pastiche of shallow historical references, fantasy, anachronisms, historical fiction, and outdated totems of class privilege. Also, the key objection to them appears to be that they (belligerently) claim historical accuracy or authority for their role-playing escapism, blurring the line between their fantasy and real life history and spreading all kinds of pernicious myths. (Of course, I could be projecting that key objection for others, since it is what annoys me about them.)

Sator has drawn analogies with the fan sub-cultures spawned by "Steampunk" sci/fi-fantasy fiction and "Goth" rock music, arguing that these folks are essentially engaging in a form of public "cosplay" that often subverts serious discussion of both men's tailoring and fashion history.

At least, that's what I got from it.


I'd agree with you there Cormac, there's also an element of nouveau snobbery and a weird worship or what 'one should do', often based on 'U and Non-U' by Nancy Mitford. They pursue a type of correct thats taken to its end is essentially costume. Its harmless and irrelevant as real aristos or the very wealthy couldn't give a fig about any rules.

It does however distract from learning about tailoring, how to choose cloth, how to pick a tailor, how to interact with him/her, how to pick a cut/style, whether or not to go about sourcing cloth trimmings linings etc for yourself and all the other topics and (fairly) arcane knowledge you need to acquire so as not to approach bespoke tailoring as an ignoramus.

I think another part is that the terms used by igents etc and the insistence on types of construction or handwork can also at the least puzzle or piss-off a professional, so instead of leading to a new generation turning to bespoke, you have a bunch of self-appointed expert talking about 'polo coats', 'drape cut', like they know what they're talking about. And I've been guilty of it myself!

And at that point it can go either way; tragedy or comedy for both parties, as Sator has demonstrated.

Cormac, great summation of the phenomenon, with a name like that have you any Irish connections at all?

#78 NuMor

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 06:11 AM

Well, based on the thread, it seems to me it is someone who is into an alternative lifestyle subculture that promotes clothes and dress rules that are a pastiche of shallow historical references, fantasy, anachronisms, historical fiction, and outdated totems of class privilege. Also, the key objection to them appears to be that they (belligerently) claim historical accuracy or authority for their role-playing escapism, blurring the line between their fantasy and real life history and spreading all kinds of pernicious myths. (Of course, I could be projecting that key objection for others, since it is what annoys me about them.)

Sator has drawn analogies with the fan sub-cultures spawned by "Steampunk" sci/fi-fantasy fiction and "Goth" rock music, arguing that these folks are essentially engaging in a form of public "cosplay" that often subverts serious discussion of both men's tailoring and fashion history.

At least, that's what I got from it.

(Oh, also, the Duke of Windsor - an icon of the igentry - was a superficial, frivolous devotee of fascism and a traitor to his country. I'm not sure that's relevant to your question, but it is certainly historically true. ;) )


:thumbsup:

#79 NuMor

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 06:11 AM

I'd agree with you there Cormac, there's also an element of nouveau snobbery and a weird worship or what 'one should do', often based on 'U and Non-U' by Nancy Mitford. They pursue a type of correct thats taken to its end is essentially costume. Its harmless and irrelevant as real aristos or the very wealthy couldn't give a fig about any rules.

It does however distract from learning about tailoring, how to choose cloth, how to pick a tailor, how to interact with him/her, how to pick a cut/style, whether or not to go about sourcing cloth trimmings linings etc for yourself and all the other topics and (fairly) arcane knowledge you need to acquire so as not to approach bespoke tailoring as an ignoramus.

I think another part is that the terms used by igents etc and the insistence on types of construction or handwork can also at the least puzzle or piss-off a professional, so instead of leading to a new generation turning to bespoke, you have a bunch of self-appointed expert talking about 'polo coats', 'drape cut', like they know what they're talking about. And I've been guilty of it myself!

And at that point it can go either way; tragedy or comedy for both parties, as Sator has demonstrated.

Cormac, great summation of the phenomenon, with a name like that have you any Irish connections at all?


:thumbsup:

#80 Cormac

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 06:33 AM

Thank you for your kind words.

The Mitford parallel seems on target to me, a good insight. Like you, I am not without the guilt of spreading received myth and cant in my time. But the difference between the misguided enthusiast and the iGent is all about acknowledging error. When I find that something I thought I knew was wrong (like the myth that black was reserved for formalwear and not used for lounge suits until recently) I let go of it and am embarrassed that I have previously promoted a mistaken notion even if I would prefer that it had been true. When the iGents are confronted with such humbling facts or inconvenient truths, they deride the messenger, or "refute" the evidence with (anonymous, unverifiable) personal experience, and generally just reject reality when it conflicts with their comforting myths.

Indeed, it was the experience of seeing this pattern repeatedly on other sites, where Sator's copiously provided documentary evidence was dismissed with flat statements like, "I never saw anyone...and can personally report that it is not done" or "Well, I suspect they only wore those at home and never considered them appropriate for..." that led me to join this excellent one.

Oh yes, I am U.S. born and bred, but my father emigrated from Ireland, as did all branches of my mother's family tree save a single welshman. I have cousins over there I am sporadically in touch with.

Edited by Cormac, 06 January 2012 - 07:07 AM.


#81 carpu65

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 06:40 AM

Well, based on the thread, it seems to me it is someone who is into an alternative lifestyle subculture that promotes clothes and dress rules that are a pastiche of shallow historical references, fantasy, anachronisms, historical fiction, and outdated totems of class privilege.


I agree,but not forget another key element of Igent: exhibitionism.
The true Igent show his pictures on forums and sites.

Also, the key objection to them appears to be that they (belligerently) claim historical accuracy or authority for their role-playing escapism


Nothing of bad in "escapism" (especially in these times).
The problem is when the webmaster said over and over again: "No escapism in my site".
In this case is good education accept the webmaster's rules.
Would be a real pity if the webmaster disgust and leave for this peoples.

Oh, also, the Duke of Windsor - an icon of the igentry - was a superficial, frivolous devotee of fascism and a traitor to his country.


Well,treason is historically controversial,but for sure he don't was an intelligent person.
Anyway i suspect that the Igents interest for the Duke is merely because are thousand and thousand of photographs of his.
If were around many pictures of others well dressed men of same period the interest would be less (also because the most of Duke's suits are objectively ugly).

#82 Plalonde

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:51 AM

The iGent is trying to discover and re-invent his style without the benefit of either mentorship or a peer group. There was a time when you learned how to dress from you father and from your peers but the iGent has neither benefit: his father likely didn't dress, and the iGent's colleagues and peer group live and work in bluejeans and t-shirts. A polo shirt is considered "dressing up". A proper shirt is often derided with "interview" jokes.
Sadly the same traits that make the iGent want to dress better make him lean towards nostalgia, while his professional training leads him to seek absolute answers. Give him 5-10 years of evolution, and you might find some of these traits easing up.

That said, this (I-hope-I'm-not-an-iGent) infrequent contributor, but frequent reader, has certainly benefited from the hearty reality-injection Sator brings to menswear fashion.

Thanks, Sator, for helping me away from nostalgia and towards real clothes.

Nothing of bad in "escapism" (especially in these times).
The problem is when the webmaster said over and over again: "No escapism in my site".
In this case is good education accept the webmaster's rules.
Would be a real pity if the webmaster disgust and leave for this peoples.



#83 Sir Rodney Ffing

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 10:15 AM

I agree,but not forget another key element of Igent: exhibitionism.
The true Igent show his pictures on forums and sites.



Nothing of bad in "escapism" (especially in these times).
The problem is when the webmaster said over and over again: "No escapism in my site".
In this case is good education accept the webmaster's rules.
Would be a real pity if the webmaster disgust and leave for this peoples.



Well,treason is historically controversial,but for sure he don't was an intelligent person.
Anyway i suspect that the Igents interest for the Duke is merely because are thousand and thousand of photographs of his.
If were around many pictures of others well dressed men of same period the interest would be less (also because the most of Duke's suits are objectively ugly).


I think the Duke is/was more of a poster boy for the Americans (ditto Fred Astaire) rather than the British. Here, he is a largely forgotten character.

Leaving aside his personal shortcomings, I do think he's an interesting dresser, certainly worthy of our consideration.

Isn't it interesting that when we consider, or are asked to consider what is a stylish man, we tend to have to look back in time to find a man that is worthy of the title: Stylish.

Are there any modern stylish men...? One wonders...

#84 greger

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 11:53 AM

i-gents are a mixed bag today. When ask andy started it was basicially a group that was more like a club that liked certain clothes. First off it was mostly bespoke, secondly of drapes of certain styles with certain rules (some of the rules were from even further back). Not everybody agreeded with it and wrote what they liked. They certainly knew some about the 40s and 50s and 60s, etc. but this club was about certain things. They opened it up a bit to other people and then more and more until ask andy has little to do with bespoke or drape. These people were no different than any other group of the hundreds through out the centuries. What amazes me is the sagger group is still around. There is a group who are trying to hippies and dress that way, but they clearly are not hippies.

About them showing their clothes- why wouldn't they? You certainly don't walk around naked- your showing what group/s you belong to every day. I think it is a shame that the core group (club) got blasted out by others who don't understand and could start their own club of clothes- it would certainly make the internet about clothes more interesting. I'd like to see the old club back along with some others. There will always be clubs and fads and attacking them out of misunderstanding is kinda odd.

#85 carpu65

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 11:22 AM

I think the Duke is/was more of a poster boy for the Americans (ditto Fred Astaire) rather than the British. Here, he is a largely forgotten character.


But i wrong or Edward VIII at time was a very popular King especially in the working class?

#86 Sir Rodney Ffing

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 10:28 AM

But i wrong or Edward VIII at time was a very popular King especially in the working class?


He may have been at the time, but nobody under a certain age in Britain would know who he is. That said, given the general level of education amongst some of our younger generation if you were to ask them who Winston Churchill was, you'd probably get a list of football clubs as part of your answer.

#87 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 11:43 AM

the general level of education amongst some of our younger generation


We live in The Age of Chavery :spiteful:
Silly Cognoscenti, Drape is for windows!

#88 carpu65

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 12:56 AM

...the general level of education amongst some of our younger generation...


And this is a very serious problem.
Ironically internet,if property used,could be the most great library in history.




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