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Rundschau Drafting System for Skirts


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#19 Schneidergott

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 02:07 PM

You are right, Rundschau messed up again. The seam is not displaced. It should be 2cm, minus 1cm in the front part and plus 1cm in the back pattern.



Isn't that just a 1cm relocation?

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#20 EllaQ

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:35 PM

Hi Sator et al.
I haven't read all the posts but just wanted to throw in a a correction and a few comments on the Rundschau/Müller&Sohn skirt draft
1. - The sentance "Zur Bestimmmung des Weitenueberschusses in der Taillenlinie misst man die ganze Strecke von T-T1 und zieht davon die halbe Taillenweite+1 cm ab." would be correctly translated as -Measure from T to T1 and from this amount subtract (1/2 waist measurement plus 1cm). The remainder is the waist suppression.
I know this is not an exact word for word translation but I did my Masters Papers as a Ladies tailor in Germany using Müler&Sohn system and that is what it means.
Rundschau does not displace the side seam at the hip BUT they do displace it at the waist. Whatever amount you decide to use for the side seam shaping divided in 2 and 1/2 plus 0.5cm is used for the front and 1/2 minus 0.5 cm is used for the back. For example total sideseam shaping is 8 cm of which 4.5 cm is used for the front and 3.5 is used for the back. You can increase this to 1/2 plus 1 cm and 1/2 minus 1 cm if, say, you have a client with a larger posterior and you are going to be using double darts in the back. The back hip curve is always flatter than the front.
M&S always it seems suggests the hipline be 20 cm below the waist but that is always too high - 22 is better. best of course is to note the hip depth when measuring the client.
The placement of the front dart is improved if you simply half the front waistline and place the dart to the right. the centerline of the dart should be squared of the waistline and not parallel to the centerfront.
back in the day we were taught to add a slight amount of flare to the side seam (1.5 cm front and back) for an "optically" straight skirt which was basically a bunch of nonsense. the tapered sideseam as given by the dashed line on this draft is much better BUT do not start the taper from the hip line as shown here. start the taper 30 cm below the waist to allow the client sufficient width when the are seated.
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#21 Sator

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 11:03 AM

I know my translation for the Basic Straight Skirt is very rough and ready. The mistranslation of Ueberschuss (literally over-shoot) as "overlap" rather than excess (to be removed by darts) is obvious to me now but it's just that things like this take hours to translate properly and write up. I often do these things late at night. I force myself to do it even if it is arduous, and in many cases I end up concentrating on the language issues so much it is hard to follow the draft at the same time. For me it's easier to just read the text in German so I can concentrate on what the text is saying. I also don't get paid for this - rather I pay to host this site and to buy these books. Late at night I often wonder why on earth I am doing this. I would not hesitate to charge over $100/hr for this sort of specialised technical translation work.

I have actually redone the section on measurements but the basic skirt draft is still extremely sketchy (which is why you still see the full original text rather than the full line by line translation), done in haste about a year ago and leave much to be desired. I know this, and have had it on my to do list, but just haven't had time to revise everything. In fact, I dread doing these translations because I end up staying up to the wee hours of the morning doing them sometimes. The other more recently added sections for disproportionate drafts have been done more accurately. My technical cutting German is also better than it was a year ago, and I am getting faster at translating this type of technical stuff, the Basic Skirt translation being one of my earliest attempts.

#22 greger

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 01:21 PM

Schneidergott gave me a lederhosen pattern. In trying to translate it the words seemed to be able to go in many different directions of different english words. Some very different ideas about measurements and what to do with them. I found it rather interesting. Not that I had anything right and it would be much easier to write it all down from an english veiw point. Just doing english language books without translating is time consuming. Thanks for all your work, Sator and everybody else who does it.

One of my aunts wanted to translate some Christian lessons and the requirement was that 4 people who spoke the two languages would be doing it. One person did the major work and the others each checked for corrections that would include proper understanding of the words and the cultureal context of the language. Not asking, nor do I expect, but a thought here is that those of you who speak a certain language could do some translations as a group. As a group it would certainly be more fun and take some of the drugery out of it. Again, thanks for the hard work of translating.

#23 EllaQ

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 05:47 PM

I hope I didn't give the impression that I was belittling Sator's work here. As an avid reader of this forum I would never do that. I truly appreciate everything he has done and the immense amount of info that he provides. I only thought that as I was forced to learn Müller&Sohn as part of my training in Germany (The Meisterschule in München had a contract to teach the system at that time) I would offer a clearer translation of that sentence.
I did my initial training in Canada many years ago and knew all the technical jargon in english and even though I was fluent in German had the devil of a time later relearning every technical term. And despite being bilingual I also find translations to be exhausting.

If any one is interested here are acouple of things that are wrong/difficult with the M&S women's drafts coming from the experience of having used it for a long time- and please understand that this pertains only to the women's drafts
1. The pant draft is not the greatest. I know the men's is quite good but the women's invariably ends up with a back seat that is either too long or sags underneath the buttocks. the front fork is also general a bit short.
2. the bodice has two main pitfalls due to it's being a proportionate system. the neckhole and the armhole. As these measurements are calculated from the bust circumference they only fit an average figure. A large or small bust, which will directly affect the calculations in the system, has nothing to do with how large or small the neck or arms are. I'm probably sounding a bit simplistic here but the size of the neckhole (for lack of a better word) directly affects the position of the shoulder which then impacts the run of the armhole/armscye.
Using a proportionate formula for the armhole width results in a too generous armhole for the large busted and a too tight one for those who are under-endowed shall we say. The armhole width directly impacts the remaining chest/bust width which affects the calculation for the size of the front darts.
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#24 Sator

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 09:46 AM

Trust me, I know that my early translation work on this forum is not as good as it is now. I too find tailoring technical German really hard. If you gave this draft to a German literature professor they would not be able to translate it properly. The reason this thread has been revised and brought back to life was to improve it. I know that the Basic Straight Skirt draft is still sketchy and rough. It is on my to do list to fix and a full translation is in the pipes. The Measurement section has been revised but the Basic Skirt has not yet been revised.

#25 Sator

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:16 PM

The first post has been updated with a new complete translation of the Basic Straight Skirt.

Next, I plan to do a translation of the skirt for a figure with unequal hips.

I hope to start adding some more fun and fancy skirts once I have completed the translating all of the sections on cutting for disproportions.

#26 Sator

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:27 PM

Oh damned... I just found some significant updates to the above Zuschnitt XVI ed. drafts for disproportionate figures in Zuschnitt XVIII. I will have to do some scanning and updating of the opening thread. There are also diagrams on how to manipulate a proportionate block to adjust it for the above set of disproportions.

Of notes is that in XVIII, they start to recommend a standard proportionate depth of seat of 20-22 cm rather than the straight 20 cm recommended in XVI.

#27 tailleuse

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 06:16 AM

The first post has been updated with a new complete translation of the Basic Straight Skirt.

Next, I plan to do a translation of the skirt for a figure with unequal hips.

I hope to start adding some more fun and fancy skirts once I have completed the translating all of the sections on cutting for disproportions.


Can an A-line skirt be easily adapted from the straight skirt draft?

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