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First rundschau trouser


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#1 gramountoto

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:41 PM

Well, after trying several modifications and sewing some muslins I've finally obtained a Rundschau trouser pattern which seems correct to me.
One of the two fabrics I just received in order to start "for true" is light tweed. I read (after ordering the fabric :pardon: ) in the supplement to Cabrera that such light "tweed" should be avoid for the first garments. What kind of problem am I going to encounter ?

#2 Nishijin

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 08:03 PM

Tweed is not a very stable cloth. It moves a lot, and frays easily where it's cut. This means that things like pockets or buttonholes require a little more experience than with a denser worsted.

If you have practiced making samples before trying to make your first real garment, you may do good. If not, well, you should ;)

BTW, when we have to work on a cloth we have never worked before, we like to make a few samples, to see how it behaves and how to get good results with it. The very minimum is to make a few seams, machine and hand, some buttonholes, and checking possibilities of ironwork (very important, because the kind of ironwork that will be possible has to be accounted for while making the pattern).


The good point of tweed : it is easy to shape, and has some thickness that makes it easier to "hide" the imperfections. It is better for a first project than paper-thin cloth.
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#3 gramountoto

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 10:03 PM

Thank you Nishijin.

How to check these ironwork possibilities in practical terms and how should I adapt the pattern ?

I read very contrasted opinions on to shrink or not to shrink today's fabrics on the forum. It seems to depend quite a bit from the fabric you're using. How can I know if it is necessary in this case?

#4 J. Maclochlainn

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:07 AM

The "secret" to tweed is that you can't muck about with it. If you sit there and tumble your garments a lot (like most beginners do) fussing over every operation then it can be a pain to work in, raveling and tossing bits of woolen shavings about making your work table look like a chia pet. But if you cut it, quickly hand serge long seams and start trowing it together then it's not that bad. Just remember a little fore-thought in your operations can make this fabric a joy to work with. good luck
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#5 gramountoto

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:09 PM

The "secret" to tweed is that you can't muck about with it. If you sit there and tumble your garments a lot (like most beginners do) fussing over every operation then it can be a pain to work in, raveling and tossing bits of woolen shavings about making your work table look like a chia pet. But if you cut it, quickly hand serge long seams and start trowing it together then it's not that bad. Just remember a little fore-thought in your operations can make this fabric a joy to work with. good luck


Thanks for "secret" sharing. Your answer also gave me the opportunity to know about chia pet :Big Grin: (had never heard about this so far).

#6 gramountoto

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:39 PM

Well, here is what I learned so far from the muslins I have made in order to sew a low rise trouser using the Rundschau system. I must say I have benefited a lot from this forum and Iím very grateful to all contributors. I hope this can help other beginners :unsure: if not by providing hints at least by triggering harsh :Black Eye: yet constructive comments by professionals.

I dropped the side seam length by 5 cm (directly measured) and measured the ďhip waistĒ (80 cm instead of 77cm). Then I used these new measures to draft the front. I dropped the front further at B1 and b2 by 1 cm and drew the curve to b1 (I realized that in contrast to high waist the low waist is not straight).

For the underside I used S_S5= 2.5 as proposed on the forum (instead of 1.5), m_M is 1 cm and m-S6 is ľ seat -0.5 so that the crotch was large enough. I also realize that one can check the spaltdurchmesser directly while drafting by adding [g_G1] (actually not g but the related point on the B1_S2 curve) and G2_G4 minus two inseam seam allowances (1.5cm). One can compare this to the measured Spaltdurchmesser (21.5 and 21 cm respectively in my case) and modify the draft accordingly :sorcerer: . I would like to have understood this when I startedÖ Ease is 3.5 cm at seat and 1.5 at waist.

Here are some pictures which show a muslin before the last modifications.

Attached File  front.pdf   44.15KB   283 downloads

Attached File  back.pdf   43.98KB   154 downloads

Attached File  Side.pdf   42.48KB   119 downloads

You can see that:
-The back seam is too short
-There is too much ease at seat: 4.5 cm (instead of 3.5) (actually respectively 3cm and 2cm without the seam allowance). This doesnít fit with rather narrow waist (1.5 cm ease, 0 cm without seam allowance). The trouser thus needs a lot of suppression at waist (3.5 cm) which I shared out between 1cm at back seam (instead of 0.5cm in the canonical draft) and two 1.5cm darts. When I put 3.5 ease at seat there are only 2.3cm suppression needed which is better. If I would need these 4.5cm ease I suppose that I could move S5 toward S to get a crooker trouser but anyway less ease should not be bad.
Actually the combination of this problem with the first one gives an awful result.
- The front center is 1cm too long which leads to folds which can be better seen on the side picture.
-The back darts are of same width although I would need much less near the pocket than near the back seam.
The final result is horrible :pardon:

I know that I should sew another muslin from the corrected draft but Iím tired of using crappy cloth and since the wool fabric I bought most probably wonít behave the same at all I prefer to start with this fabric and put inlays to allow some last modifications.

I hope this will be of some use for some of you. Iíll try to post the different steps while making the garment but Iím afraid Iíll be only able to work very slowly.

#7 gramountoto

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 05:55 AM

I'm now reaching a phase where I can post some pictures. Thank you Alfredo to have posted your work as it gives me the courage to do so... :friends:
I have to thank all people contributing on the forum especially those who kindly took some time to comment on my work or answer my questions (DZ, Posaune, Nishijin, Jason... Hope not to forget anyone)
I finally let my light tweed aside since it falls apart in my hands and I'm clearly not ready to work with that stuff as Jason politely suggested.

I still have to sew the waistband lining and curtain as well (as the last button once this is done.) And close the trouser with the central seam.
And we'll see if it somehow fits :Praying:

As you can see the fabric is striped but there are some barely noticeable horizontal light blue stripes too. I can't advice too much other beginners to use this kind of pattern as it helps a lot to see what's going on and it's a good exercise to match pattern. And if one does not succeed well nobody will notice anyhow (beside forum people)...

Posted Image

Here is some attempt to match pattern (or patternmatch?) on a curved pocket. The result is far from being satisfying and next time I have to do some patternmatching I'll cut pocket straight. Actually I see mostly straight back pockets on the forum. Is this curved back pocket any kind of Cabrera specific whim ?

Posted Image

Nishijin is right (of course): agreman is too thick for trouser. Too late.
I was not very confident in which direction to sew these three buttonholes. The more logical to me would be the nice side toward the inside (and the button), while the nicest is to have the nice part toward the outside. Well nobody but me is supposed to see that eather :spiteful: . As you see I have mixed the two possibilities. The less logical actually.
Or is there a way to sew a bifacial buttonhole ?

Posted Image
Posted Image

Here's how the fly will look once closed. Actually the front center part is not very clean mostly because the waistband seam switch from opened seam to unopened seam (arrow) at the fly.
Too bad it's the most visible part of the trouser. :Doh:
Posted Image

And here's the whole mess... Well that's what curtain is meant for :sorcerer:
Posted Image

Any constructive comments welcome.

Edited by gramountoto, 12 June 2012 - 05:09 AM.


#8 Nishijin

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:21 AM

Is this curved back pocket any kind of Cabrera specific whim ?


I may have got it from Cabrera, but I always curve slightly the "straight" pockets. Trousers and coats. It is to better follow the body shapes, and it does help keeping the pocket shut. The amount of curve is just so that it looks straight when work. Easy way : draw the pocket mouth with chalk on the customer while fitting.

I was not very confident in which direction to sew these three buttonholes. The more logical to me would be the nice side toward the inside (and the button), while the nicest is to have the nice part toward the outside.


Nice side towards where it's most visible. This means on the belt: towards outside, and on the fly : towards inside.

Or is there a way to sew a bifacial buttonhole ?


Yes : embroider 2 buttonholes, from each face. I do it on coats for 3 buttons roll on 2, so that the unused buttonhole is nice on both sides.
No need on trousers.

the waistband seam switch from opened seam to unopened seam (arrow) at the fly.


If you don't plan to move the seam anymore, then clip the seam allowance so that it folds nicely everywhere.



PS : nice work.
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#9 gramountoto

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:47 PM

Nice side towards where it's most visible. This means on the belt: towards outside, and on the fly : towards inside.

:Doh: 2 correct buttonholes out of eight... And no gimp anymore.


If you don't plan to move the seam anymore, then clip the seam allowance so that it folds nicely everywhere.

Thanks I'll do that.

PS : nice work.

Thanks. Hope it's not only politeness. :)

#10 rs232

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 10:06 PM

Nice, keep at it!

#11 Nishijin

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 11:59 PM

Nope, I'm don't think it is polite to lie. I say nice work when I think it is. If I think the work is not nice, and want to be polite, and am afraid that telling what I think might be considered offensive, then I say nothing.


And sorry, but on the pictures, I see only 1 correct buttonhole : on the fly extension.

On the belt, you put the buttons on the reverse (buttons towards inside instead of towards outside). So your buttonhole should face the inside (they are not visible outside).

It's a pity, since they were quite nice. Maybe a tad thick, but you will learn how to make them thinner with experience.
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#12 zokiTzar

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:57 AM

great fabric and nice trousers I bet you will enjoy wearing them :)
congrats

#13 gramountoto

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 05:06 AM

And sorry, but on the pictures, I see only 1 correct buttonhole : on the fly extension.

Ouch ! :Cry:

Thank you rs232 and zokiTzar.

Edited by gramountoto, 12 June 2012 - 05:07 AM.


#14 Nishijin

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 01:02 AM

Gramounto : it's a pity you made them on the wrong side. But you should focus on the good point : they are well made. Removing them and making them on the right side is not an unreasonable task. Plus, it will give you XP points !
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#15 gramountoto

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 05:13 AM

The trouser is now finished. :yahoo:
It's far from being perfect but it is nice enough for me to wear it.
I wouldn't have made it without this forum and the people posting here (both questions and answers). Thank you all and most of all thank you master Sator :im Not Worthy:

Posted Image

I had just enough twist to re-sew the two waistband buttonholes. I'm afraid the fly buttonholes will stay inside out...

Posted Image

The buttons "stems" are a bit long. This is the reason for the shift of the buttonholes half of the fly. Furthermore the buttons shouldn't perhaps be sewed exactly in the eye of the buttonhole but rather 2 mm away to prevent this. Am I wrong ?

I did this on the back pocket and it worked pretty well:

Posted Image

I'm waiting for linen thread to resew the fly buttons.

Any comment about the fitting ? Beside the crazy colors (don't understand what happened)

Posted Image

The trouser is too wide to my taste. I'll make the next one narrower especially at thighs (no slim fit though). I have some questions about cutting such a trouser but will post them in a drafting thread later on.
Seems to me that the back thigh isn't clean. Would have additional iron work make this back crease look better ? Or is this a cutting problem ? I got thin thighs and rather full bum. Maybe this combination leads to such kind of issue.

However I have to say without exaggerating that it is the most comfortable I've ever worn. Perhaps because I only have rather cheap RTW stuff... :blush:

I have sewn by hand the center back seam with polyester thread (DMC). Will it be strong enough ? Should I add a second seam ?

Last thing: the trouser fasteners I got are not flat enough and the result is really deceiving. The outside fabric layer of the waistband isn't attached to the fastener (only linen and inside layer) and this leads the waistband extension to gape (Am I clear ?). This is really ugly. Unless one give me a trick, I'll vote for a button next time.

Edited by gramountoto, 28 June 2012 - 07:27 PM.

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#16 rs232

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:24 AM

The folds under your bum are likely due to the seat angle being too crooked relative to your posture - you may have overcompensated for the size of your buttocks. It also looks tight across the hips at the front.

If you attach the hook right at the end of the waistband extension it won't gape (you may have to use sew on hooks). If it's currently gaping a lot, though, the tension is probably not equally borne between the centre and extension hooks on this pair of trousers.

#17 gramountoto

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:43 PM

Here is a second trouser which I hope I'll get to fit me better.

I think that the main problem comes from the combination of hips twisted forward and still rather full bottom.

There are still problems although I took into account the changes suggested by the first trouser: seat angle, bottom same length as top (NOT 1cm longer as on the draft). I also added some modifications after a first fitting where I noticed fullness just below the belt at back (while CB seam was ok.)

Posted Image

On the draft, the red lines correspond to the modifications from the first fitting of this trouser, the blue lines correspond to what I plan to do now.

Posted Image

+ I hope to get a clean back thigh with ironwork (no ironwork performed on this trouser yet) but I still think about lowering the belt seam (0.5cm, 1cm already at first fitting) combined with a modification at crotch.

+ The hidden dart in the side seam is too large (2cm) and gives more fullness than needed. I plan to reduce it to 1cm.

+ The little dart at back is obviously not a good idea: this part of my bottom (side of the buttock) is more on the hollow side.

+But then I have 1.8cm waist suppression to put somewhere else (1cm side seam and 0.8 back dart). The idea was to enlarge the main back dart (2cm=>2.6) and the front dart (1cm => 1.6). But this leaves 0.8 cm...

This is rather cheap linen from the local shop. I hope to get a nice fitting trouser so that I can start mass production ;) with nice linen and woollen.

Any suggestion is welcome

Edited by gramountoto, 20 December 2012 - 07:44 PM.


#18 Nishijin

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:05 PM

+ I hope to get a clean back thigh with ironwork (no ironwork performed on this trouser yet) but I still think about lowering the belt seam (0.5cm, 1cm already at first fitting) combined with a modification at crotch.


This is linen. You can't use ironwork on it.

The ironwork is there to create a hollow between the seat and the knee. It is not used to clean a messy back, and you won't be able to do it. On linen trousers, you should focus on getting a straight hanging, no hollow. You'll learn later how to trick the fabric to get a slight hollow anyway, but now, just a clean, straight hang is enough as a goal.

I think lowering the waistband on the back is a good idea. But you have to adjust the crotch curve too, or you will get a too short crotch seam, which will make another mess.

I also think your back inseam could be a tad shorter.

Take care that your legs aren't the same on the picture. Maybe it's just the picture, maybe they are not the same on your body, and need different tweakings.
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